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Why I am considering leaving the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle and I need your help

Why I am considering leaving the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle:

I've been a vegan for at least two years now. Before I was vegan, I was quite malnourished and tired often. After I adjusted to eating more organic raw foods (vegetables, fruits, grains, nuts and seeds), as well as some cooked foods, for a while I was feeling great. I was eating a lot of fats too (olive oil, coconut, avocados, sunflower seeds, coconut oil, etc, etc). I also was taking Dr. Schulze's Super Food Plus formula... which is really great, and it even has B12 in it. I was juicing a lot too.

Since then, however, I've not had the same energy levels as I used to so I've been doing a very open minded research on this here. Before I tell you anything about what I've found, I want to tell you that I'm not at all interested in debating with anyone about these issues. I really do want the truth, and I would really appreciate it if someone here 'sets me straight' on these issues. By that, I mean that I am very open for a discussion about this, but if it comes to throwing flames at each other because one believes one thing and the other, the other, or one is an 'animal murderer' and the other is not, then I want absolutely nothing to do with it.

So, here are some of my findings:

1.The body n-e-e-d-s cholesterol. Its actually very very important to your body and you are basically a vegetable without it. Furthermore, there are many, many lies going around about it. The drug companies will tell you anything to make money. Such as LDL and HDL being two different kinds of cholesterol. Actually, there is only one cholesterol molecule and the LDL and HDL are its transport system (to the arteries, and away from the arteries). When you eat grains, if you do not eat cholesterol with it, your liver will convert the grains into fats, and cholesterol. Now, your body does make its own cholesterol but it still might be possible that it is not making enough because of a. you are not eating the right foods or b. you have a liver problem (as most people do). So, being low in cholesterol might (I say might) be a problem after a while.

2.Eating eggs has shown in scientific studies to not raise people's cholesterol levels.

3.A lot of vegetarians (or at least a decent amount of them) have problems with tooth decay. This tooth decay large associated with not having enough calcium, and consuming too many grains. A person's health is easily judged by the health of his or her teeth. If they have strong, healthy, cavity free teeth, that means that they are probably very healthy. If not, then they are probably not. I, myself, have a few cavities which are growing.

4.Its all about quality. Its all about quality. While commercial 30 day old eggs might not be good, fresh organic, true free range, might be good... especially if they were raw. While pasteurized milk does terrible things to you, organic raw milk is great.

5.There are tons of myths about vegan/vegetarianism of which most are apparently not true. Like, that the land is being wasted and even ruined by raising animals on it, or that animals take in more water than plants. This is really not true because much of earth's soil is not good growing soil, and the animals actually help fertilize and replenish soils. Furthermore, their urine gets put back into the soil, and that is high in nitrogen, composed of mostly water. And then they say that meat eaters are mot violent because some weird thing is like transferred from the meat to the person, and the person kills people. This is crazy though because there has been Vegan killers. Charles Manson and his followers were one of them. They took drugs, smoked, and drank, but they never ate meat. In fact, he preached against it. Yet he controlled many (and still is today, believe it or not), and many died. My problem is that if I say I am vegan, I associate myself with so many other people who preach these things that are not really true.

6.Its hard to be a vegan and have vitamin B12. The only real source I know of is bee pollen, though thats technically not vegan. I know Dr. Schulze sells his super food plus formula with some kind of special yeast that he grows himself, on molasses, and that has B12... but thats about it. And also a lot of the supplements are not the most kosher either. A lot of them are synthetic, or worse.

7.Weston Price went around the world looking for healthy people who had healthy teeth. He found then in people who ate a relatively native diet consisting of a lot of lipids and proteins... beef liver, bone marrow, etc. etc. People who ate too many complex carbohydrates (too much grains), sugars, and not enough calcium, lipids, etc-- had tooth decay. He concluded that people get cavities, not because of bacteria, but because of a lack of nutrition... and too much processed foods (grains again) which lead to the demineralization of the teeth.

8.Many vegans/vegetarians say that their lifestyle is a biblical one. But this does not make sense because the jews in the bible were all commanded to eat the passover lamb. Many times they ate meat. The bible even says in Proverbs 27:27 to let goats milk be your food, and for the food of your family. Abraham dressed a calf for the three men (one being Jesus) which came to him and he fed them milk and butter. Thats Genesis 18:8. While Genesis 2:19 does clearly outline a vegan type diet, that was before the fall, and things changed after that. Before the fall, Adam and Eve did not really need nutrients... they did not need to work, and they did not need to eat. They were constantly in the presence of God. After they sinned, they were separated from God... and then they needed to work for their food, and eat. Even Daniel... it does not say that he was a Vegetarian, or that he was a vegan. It just says that they ate pulse for 10 days. Not 3 years, 10 days. Pulse is basically legumes, but he could have had more than that. If I tell you that I had an apple today, you would assume that I had much more than that... right? At least thats what I believe. Now, you might say,



  • Hello

    I read your post - wow, a lot of issues in there!

    Firstly, you should have confidence and faith that the lifestyle you lead suits you and is one that you are happy with. Just eating something because you've been told it's good (but you don't enjoy it) or avoiding something (because you feel guilty eating it) are not ideal motivators.

    We're all unique, wonderful light beings. The more you do things in joy and from your heart, the better you will feel.

    Secondly, you are right in that within every "group" of people (eg vegans, raw food eaters, etc) you will find a whole cross section of people. Some are happy and content to just get on, others want to inspire, others can come across as critical and judgemental. Please ignore these criticisms and judgements, as utlimately it is your decision and, if made in joy and love, will be the right one.

    Here are some answers to your points (my opinion with 10 years experience in nutrition and alternative health, energetic medicine and a fan of Dr Mercola!!!):

    1. Yes

    2. Yes - but raw have a more beneficial effect as once cooked egg white protein can produce allergic reactions due to it being difficult to digest

    3. Being vegetarian is by no means a guarantee of good health, it simply means one is avoiding meat/fish. Good health starts when your diet is at least 70% vegetables and fruit and 50% raw. Green leafy vegetables will supply you with more calcium than dairy (which sucks it from your body) and more protein than meat. Tooth decay can be avoided by maintaining a health balance of bacteria in mouth (ie eating an alkaline diet, no sugar) and eating a mineral rich diet. Oranges, lemons, etc are very agressive and I've found it helps to take a small amount of xylitol and swill it round my mouth to restore the balance in my mouth after.

    4. Yes, but I personally believe that we are better off avoiding milk from other animals. My choice!

    5. Some fearful ideas here - but you only associate with others if you believe this to be true. I certainly have no concept that I "belong" to people who think the way you describe. Also, it is absolutely true that animals are far more energy intensive than vegetables. It's simple to explain; animals eat vegetables, then they are eaten by humans. If we by-passed this, we'd eat the vegetables that the animals are eating (OK, massive generalisation! we don't eat grass, but we'd get to use the land to grow vegetables for ourselves rather than feeding the animals with it)

    6. Yes, take the B12 spray that Dr Mercola sells - it's the one supplement I take (along with plenty of sun-cream free sunshine to give me Vitamin D)

    7. See 3.

    8. Why does this matter? It's your choice, driven by your motives, not those of others who have their own personal reasons - I don't believe we should judge why people make the decision to be vegetarian/vegan, simply to accept and love them.

    9. You will find the perfect balance of omega 3/6 in fruit. No need to take oil supplements - look to nature to inspire you; do you find isolate oils there? No. So my view is that we take the food as we find it in nature, as much as possible, and have confidence that it will supply you with the nutritional balance you need. Too much fear is banded around about what we should and shouldn't eat - keep it simple, realise that for the most part we're perfectly supplied by what grows naturally, not what we find in the shops or on a nutritionist's list

    10. We have plenty of food - it is a myth that it is in short supply. There are many nations who over consume - that is a problem

    11. OK

    12. I've been a vegetarian for 25 years, a vegan for 5 years, a raw food eater for a few months! I've never met a single "puffed up" vegetarian. We do attract people into our lives who mirror our thoughts though

    13. Yes, I either make them into smoothies or avoid them

    14. An age old debate. I think we can adapt to eat anything, but how healthy are your meat eating friends? How healthy are those vegetarians who eat milk? From personal experience, the best heatlh I've ever known has been as a raw food eater (not perfect, still eat dark chocolate in small amounts!)

    15. Best to speak to a colon hydrotherapist about this one!

    16. Sorry to hear this. What about getting a SCIO test done to check your mineral levels?

    17. Weight doesn't matter as long as you're happy, healthy and not overweight.

    18. Yes, you can be very healthy on vegan/raw - I am! But its also about finding a balance and not judging yourself so harshly - if you want to eat meat one day, then raw the next, that's fine as long as you embrace your decision and love yourself for it. I personally am still finding a good balance - I think that life is all about change and continual adjustment and never getting stuck in one particular way.

    I really hope this helps!

  • I'm not going to respond to all of these, but "your body needs cholesterol" is complete bullshit. If you've given up on being healthy (and by that statement, you obviously have) it's not worth the time.

  • belikeyeshua,

    I'm not quite sure what you mean by "leaving the lifestyle". This isn't an all or nothing lifestyle, in my opinion. If you are feeling that you would be healthier and/or happier by changing your diet, then that is exactly what you should do. You can always go back to the way you are eating right now if it doesn't work out. That doesn't mean that some (or most) of your meals cannot be vegetarian/vegan/raw or whatever you are aspiring to. And, don't worry about other people's motivation for what they eat. Your body is your body.

  • It kind of sounds like you researched "Why vegans are bad" at google :) Of course you'll find good and bad things on both sides of almost any issue. Many of your points are people specific and aren't really an issue on the subject - like the Charles Manson thing... There's plenty of "good" and "bad" people who are or are not vegans. There's plenty of people who do and do not have tooth decay that are or are not vegans.

    I think it's really about being healthy and conscious of what you're eating. Do you eat a fast food hamburger or do you make it yourself at home with fresh, organic, free range ingredients - you know? I agree with Kandace that you don't have to abandon the "lifestyle" but, if you feel like some omega-3 rich salmon, go for it (just make sure it's wild caught)! You feel like a free range egg - do it! I'm not raw or vegan (I eat wild fish and cook my quinoa) and LOVE the idea of whole foods - no processed soy things or packaged food riddled with preservatives and chemicals. Just continue to be informed on what you're eating and make healthy choices- "Nothing's either good nor bad but thinking makes it so" :)

    Also, Kombucha has vitamin B12 in it...

  • i took this from the brilliant reference information at naturalnews.com

    there are a lots of not vegan foods in this list, but i'm not really into them so..

    Vitamin b12 sources include these foods*:


    Shiitake mushroom

    Barley grass

    Oyster mushrooms

    Sea vegetables


    also, incan berries have b12.

  • Sarah,

    Sorry I spelt your name wrong.

    In response to your question, I do know a lot of meat eaters... and actually a few of them are very healthy. One of them is a professional health/body builder in Delaware, OH. He is opening up another clinic in Columbus too. He is very muscular, and he stays fairly healthy. He eats mostly organic though. Only organic meats, a lot of eggs, lots of veggies, organic beef liver tablets, takes a lot of herbs, and he works out a lot. An interesting fact, by the way, when you build muscle, your immune system actually gets stronger and you do not get sick as often. Furthermore, if you are eating some toxins, your body tends to rid itself of them much quicker.

    Which is a plus for me because I need all the energy I can get my hands upon beings that I am working at a Organic CSA Vegetable Farm, not too far from home here in Upstate, NY. The job is like 5-8, 3 days a week and I bring home lots of produce practically every day for the family. Last week I picked almost 2 bushels of green beans and my mom is canning/freezing them for the winter. We also got lots of potatoes, and then tons of other veggies.

  • Sara,

    Thanks so much! That helped a ton. No, I have never been tested. What is a SCIO test?


    OK. Saying that I've been pondering truth, does not mean I've decided to not be healthy.... does it?


    Thank you. That helps. "Leaving the lifestyle" is, in my mind, a very cheap way of saying that I'm thinking about giving into what people like Weston Price, Dr. Mercola, and Ramiel Nagel are saying while balancing it out with a lot of raw foods, juices, and such... so that I can get myself on some kind of a nutritional program, cut back on grains, and hope to see some improvement in my vision, and teeth.


    No, I have nothing at all against vegans, myself being kind of a one of them (I say kind of because I had a couple soft boiled eggs last week... organic and all). A lot of them are really good people. Its just... that Truth is Truth, and I've been very open lately, to finding Truth. Otherwise, I would not have posted this here.

    I really do appreciate the advice. Any tips, when it comes to curing cavities... would be greatly appreciated. I'm thinking I need to go with what Ramiel Nagel, Author of Cure Tooth Decay says because I know it works. Both he and Dr. Mercola says that if someone has healthy teeth, it means they are most likely healthy. But, I'm very open to what you people have to say.

    The other problem is this: Right now, when I go to people's house, they usually know that I'm vegetarian and they are real good about giving me foods I can eat. Now, if I ended up being somewhat of a "Vegetarian Enthusiast" (meaning I'd eat lots of raw veggies, fruits, nuts and seeds, but still fish oil, some eggs, raw milk maybe, maybe some meat or something, etc... but mostly vegetarian), then they would say, "Do you eat meat.?" And I would say, "YES! I eat meat... I just do not eat YOUR meat because its full of toxins and stuff."

    I'm generally very sensitive to the feelings of others because I want to love them and respect them, and I do not want to offend them... so, this seems hard. And then when food is put in front of me, I generally will end up eating it. Its a biblical principal, but we do not need to get into that.

    Also, I note that so many health nuts (vegan and non vegan) focus on what foods have what in it... when I think the key issue is whether your body can absorb the nutrients or not. If someone's digestive system is faulty, then they will not get much nutrients out of their food. True, Spirulina has B12 in it, but it also is said to have something that prevents the absorption of B12. And some vitamins are fat soluble, others are not. Like, if you have a tomato without any fat, you will not get near as many nutrients. And to me, that sounds like a waste.

    I still would like to here from people about the biblical side to being healthy. Because the bible did support being Vegan, but that was before Adam and Even sinned. Since then, it seemed like things changed. Anybody want to say something about that??

    Anyhow, when we were in Missouri last month, we went to my father in law's hog confinement... and man was it sad. He thinks its great, but his barn can hold 2200 hogs, and he has 1700 in it right now. There is food, water, poop, and pee everywhere... and a couple dead piglets here and there (which they keep there for a while to 'help strengthen the other pigs'). It was almost exactly like it was in the videos. They eat junk food, and the only time they get to see the sun is when they are being transported to the butcher's shop. That is part of the reason why I either want to be a strict vegetarian, or eat only organic animal foods from local farms who treat their animals right. I think that if an animal actually had grass to eat, and it was treated right, then you will benefit from eating it... much more than from eating a hog from the above 'factory' (as I call them).

    Again, thanks for the help! Lord Bless You

  • belikeyeshua,

    I do hope your list is not reflective of your stress level. There's nothing worse for you than stress, no matter what you eat!

    I believe "healthy" is a misnomer. You're goal should be what makes you feel good, strong and at your optimum. Don't worry about any "lifestyle," "movement" or labels like Vegan.

    I would suggest starting a food diary where you put down what you eat and how you felt after eating it and then how you feel 2 hours after the meal. It will help you tune into what's working on a micro level and you can adjust your diet accordingly. Add some raw eggs in, see how you feel. I personally can't eat grains with anything except greens-adding anything else taxes my digestion too much and saps all my energy.

    I also eat wild salmon 2-3 times a week, organic-free range eggs/raw and cooked 3-4 times a week, A few times a month I eat a baked sweet potato, steamed quinoa, and or cooked beans (usually edamame) and then the rest is raw veggies and fruit.

    Like Matt Monarch says, it's about what you DON'T eat. If you're eating whole foods without processed grain and sugars then you're doing way better than most.

  • the59sound,

    Then what was the point of commenting at all? There's nothing more unhealthy than someone who needs to be arrogant and rude.

  • I'm sure many agreed with me, it's disgusting to see what she was typing. You're just picking me out because of your little fish addiction.

  • oooooooooooKay....

    I recommend you take a biology course. If not I can give you some links. The body needs cholesterol. Thank God, it also manufactures its own cholesterol... given you eat right, and have a healthy liver, and try to avoid grains.

    As far as "it's disgusting to see what she was typing," I'm not a she. No offence taken though. Regardless, I'm trying to be open minded. Person A says that ALL animal products are terrible while person B is a healthy, energetic, and strong person who says you need some animal products.... I would like to find the Truth. We have to weigh it out. What is wrong with that?


    Actually, I have been rather stressed out lately... and I know that is not good. Thank you for your comments. It helps a lot.

  • The thing is "truth" is subjective. No one here can be responsible for your "lifestyle" or your teeth or your eyes...or your diet. My truth about myself and my diet or beliefs about life in general is an on-going evolving process. It's something that I strive to learn about each and every day. If you don't like something about your life--change it! Be brave, you don't need our permission! If you have taken all that time to research that much information out, I think that you already know what you want to do or what direction you want to head in at least. My mom was a raw vegan for 12 years and after careful research, she just very recently felt the need to incorporate wild-caught (tested) salmon (from mercola's site) and organic, free-range/veg-fed eggs into her diet at least once a week. I'm not at that place...but that's my whole point. Each and every single one of us are different people with different needs. You have to take responsibility for your own health back into your own hands. You've done your research, have faith to believe in what YOU believe in, regardless of how others feel! God Bless and no matter what you decide...own it!!!! =)

  • Hey Sarah - You should read the books The Maker's Diet by Jordan Rubin and Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon, lots of really good info in both. I too have struggled with what diet is most beneficial for my body, and used Nourishing Traditions to transition to raw. While I agree that a raw vegan 80/10/10 type of diet is ideal for someone who's already in great health, it may not work if you are in poor health, especially if you have digestive disorders (me too). Your teeth and tongue are definitely indicators of your level of health, so something's obviously not working in your diet. I'd say grains (even sprouted) are most likely the problem, 90% of people are gluten intolerant, and whether we are omni or herbivore, we're definitely not designed to eat grains. If I were you I'd cut out the grains and see how that makes you feel; if not better, then look to those books for guidance on properly preparing meat/eggs/raw dairy. I've had really good success in getting my body and teeth cleaned up with eating lots of coconut and coconut oil pulling, so maybe that would help you. Bruce Fife's books are loaded with good info on all things coconut.

    Don't listen to the negativity others like to spew, they're only doing it to pat themselves on the back. Good luck to you, and don't worry, you will figure it out as long as you listen to your body and no one else's

  • Can't you make your own mind up on the subject without asking for other people's input? I mean, if this is something that you truly feel is wrong, then end it. By yourself, for yourself, there need not be any further discussion.

    Posting such as you have to me seems slightly....unwise? what were you hoping to gain by discussion about veganism when clearly you're opposed to it, and you know people here are so for the idea....I found it very curious that this was ever posted at all....

  • Thanks stella,

    I think you were talking to me. I can at least draw that conclusion. I've got to cut out the grains. At least the wheat, for now... and skip the morning oatmeal. My big problem is that I work at a Organic Vegetable farm. Raw food diets (such as the Hallelujah diet), if they have anything wrong with them, are known for their 'empty calories.' That is, even though the body does need nutrients (which it can get from liquids such as juices, green powders, flax oil, and even some fish oils, etc), it needs a fuel source (something to burn for fuel). Protein is really good for you (asuming its good protein that was cooked properly, or not cooked at all is even better), but its just not a good enough fuel source. Carbohydrates are great, but it seems too many people eat way too much of them... and your liver tends to convert these (especially grains), to sugar. Fats are believed to be one of the best fuel source because it lasts a while. Good fats, that is.

    So, if I give up grains, I would have to eat lots more fruit (and I'm worried about my teeth, again). And the fruit is too much carbohydrates anyway. I'm thinking about maybe having omelets some mornings (though its better to have raw egg protein smoothies). But then what about my two sandwiches for lunch at work? If it was not for the bread, I'm sure I would not be able to make it until 5:00, because even though its not raw (too bad), it I would run out of energy if I did not eat it (unless I had lots more snacks). I need to somehow keep me feeling good and energetic, while I cut out a lot of my grain consumption. Meaning, I need to eat more foods and try to avoid 'empty calories.' I need more calories, else I would be at the end of the day and find that I've only had 1000 calories for the day. Grains are HIGH in calories. So, this means I need to replace grains with nuts and seeds...right? Thats expensive.

    Maybe I should make this new diet thing some sort of a program with herbs and all for my teeth and eyes (taking a lot of cayenne too!! :)), and I should start it with a seven day juice fast while taking green powders. My experience has been that I've had more energy, and more strength on a juice fast if its Organic Juices. I even went on a Piano Move with my dad once and the piano owners were amazed at my strength. They asked, "Man! What does this guy eats?? I'd like to eat like he does." I did not tell them I was not eating at the time :).

    I like the sounds of a health program to heal my teeth and improve my vision... because thats something I can stick too, once I've really jumped in with both feet, and its also something I could change in the future.

    Your insights would be appreciated.

    At any rate, my name's Shawn.

    Be Blessed!

  • Tabbycats_tofu,

    I asked for other people's input because;

    I want to be healthy, strong, and live long. Full of energy and endurance. I'm asking other people's imput because there is so much stuff out there and I need help weeding through it. I'm not opposed to being vegan, actually I'm quite leaning towards it. I'm just saying that I've found a lot of info that seems to want me to lean the other way slightly (more of a flexitarian or something, but still mostly raw)... and that I'm open to what you have to say. If you want to say something that will convince me that staying Vegan and eating raw goods is a great way to 1. cure tooth decay and 2. heal my vision while, 3. give me more energy then PLEASE tell me. I want to hear it.

    I'm not at all opposed to being vegetarian. I'm a vegetarian. Used to be vegan. I'm not against being vegan either.

    I'm just open. Is there something wrong with that?

  • Ahhh I see now...sorry if I sounded unreasonable!

    I wonder about the opposing views you've mentioned -ie vegans have bad teeth...meat eaters have cancer, etc- I think really that all of this contrary evidence is a direct result of people interpreting scientific results to suit their own purposes...if you can, try reading The China Study- if nothing else, it'll help you see how twisted the info we receive actually is....

  • Wow - l'm new to this forum and can't believe a couple of the comments - I thougt raw food eaters were supposed to be chilled?!!!

    Joking aside, there are lots of lovely responses here, but it's upsetting to read one or two of the comments, as I believed that forums were for support and advice, not to be criticised and judged.

    Shawn: My answer regarding SCIO test - the QXCI/SCIO biofeedback device was invented by Dr Bill Nelson (a US citizen who now lives in Hungary for his own protection, after his device became very successful at treating illness that were the previous domain of the pharmaceutical companies). You can read about it on my site www.bluefishenergetics.com for how it works - I had one, sold it because we needed the money, and now wish I could buy another one! There are plenty of practitioners - just google QXCI/SCIO and your area/city.

    Re: body building - just look at Markus Rothkranz's site if you have doubts about a perfect body on raw food!

    Have a lovely day!

  • http://www.markusrothkranz.com/go_raw_now/go_raw_now.html

    sorry forgot link - it's a very in-your-face website, but the basic message is good!

  • Thanks Sarah... thats really interesting.

    I think that most of us can somewhat agree that eating animal products (especially if it was Raw eggs and raw milk) might do you much more good than bad.

    But Vegan or not vegan, there is still one issue that stands and we need to deal with it. That is, grains. I find it very hard to cut them back so much because its been most of my calories. What can I do to eliminate them while also adding lots of nutrition and calories from other raw foods? I work really hard at an organic farm and I need strength and endurance.

    If I cut out all my grains and replaced it with raw foods, I would be like 80% raw or so. BUT, this does not explain my cavities because a year ago, I was on this raw food diet, and I ate mostly raw foods and almost no grains. I still had cavities. I agree with Ramel, he says that its a lack of nutrition that causes cavities. Should I give in and take organic calcium/mineral supplements?

    And then how come there are people who eat MUCH more organic animal fats, and they are healthy?

  • Hello

    Grains are the hardest one to give up! I found out by accident how much better I felt when I didn't eat them after I tried to lose my baby weight after my third child, and cut them out (ie calories!) Now, I substitute with more nuts, seeds, oils and also use dehydrated food (well, Biscru!) and sometimes sprouted grain bread - not raw, but I personally can tolerate it in small doses.

    Originally before I moved to France my diet was oatcakes, nut butter, raisins and/or yoghurt for breakfast, salad for dinner with baked potato, then quiche and cooked veg or vege-soya burger with rice and veg for tea, maybe some goats cheese or sheeps cheese/yoghurt. Snacks were snack bars (grains!), oatcakes, rice cakes, etc. Never ate bread as I'd realised in my late 20s that it didn't make me feel good.

    Now we've moved to France and I discovered raw food, I have fruit for breakfast , sometimes a few nuts as well, green smoothie for dinner which kills my appetite and I'm beginning to realise that it's the nutrients we crave, not the calories. Then an avocado with grated carrot. Then later some Biscru at 4pm (the French always have go

  • Hey Shawn - sorry i got the name wrong... my brain was focused on my fantasy football draft... :)

    I suggested books because we can't really weed thru all the info out there for you... What works for some may not work for others (or if you're like me it can work for a while and then things change...). You just have to research and do what feels right for YOUR body, and if it doesn't work, change it up. For me, coconuts have been a life-saver. When I was really sick and couldn't eat fruit, coconuts/coconut oil helped me go from 82 pounds to 104 pounds. My teeth and eyes got way better as well. Now that I can eat fruit again, I LOVE Green Smoothies, the greens will give you all the calcium and protein you need, and you can add fresh coconut or coconut oil for more calories and as an energy source. Supposedly your body burns the fat immediately for energy, which is why I can't eat it too late or I can't sleep... You can definitely get enough calories with coconuts

    Green smoothies and oil pulling with coconut oil has made my teeth go from grey and almost see-thru to mostly strong and white. I'll recommend another book for you, Oil Pulling by Bruce Fife (that man's my hero...).

    You can also replace bread with flax crackers. Lots of calories and good fat in those. If you think you really need bread, you can make it with coconut flour, although not raw and uses eggs, see Bruce Fife's Cooking with Coconut Flour.

    Some people are healthy eating animal products, but if you don't have strong digestion you probably won't be. Especially milk, even if it's raw. What do people with ulcers do - drink milk. It neutralizes stomach acid. So the milk goes right into your intestines undigested which then wreaks all kinds of havoc (see The China Study for one). Better to get those nutrients with green smoothies imo. I think I read that the Boutenko's teeth got better from them too. Read Green for Life or go to www.rawfamily.com

    Anyway, that's more of my 2 cents, I hope it helps. You sound like you already know you need to give up the grains, so do it! I'd give those up before fruit. Oh, and coconut is pretty inexpensive as well (free here in FL!), especially compared to nuts/seeds, and a jar of coconut oil goes a long way.

  • i can't take much time to comment but i am going to say this.

    as someone who has a bachelor's degree in nutrition and has done a lot of reading and research in it (particularly vegan/raw nutrition), sooo much stuff you read about nutrition is completely wrong and insane. honestly, i don't think people are ever going to find the "healthiest" way to eat because you can find or do studies to prove anything. yes, some are more legit than others (of course), but especially with the internet we have access to anything we want to believe.

    in addition, everyone is different! i think there are general guidelines that people can abide by, but if people seriously think they are going to react the exact same way as someone else to any certain food/diet they are probably wrong.

    do i think that a vegan diet is very healthy? yes. do i think that a raw diet is healthy? yes. do i think that they can both be unhealthy? yes. do i think that an omnivorous diet is healthy? yes, but i believe that it is harder to do than vegan/raw.

    and to the OP -- a lot of what you wrote was VERY subjective. i think you know this and commented on it, but i believe that it is wrong to exploit animals in any way (including humane farms that involve killing, or even not killing) just as you apparently believe that what is in the bible is the ideal way to eat. speaking of which, i am not religious but have heard that the original diet in the bible was herbivorous and only during/after the flood did god give man permission to eat animals (because of lack of vegetation).

    anyway, i don't mean to start any arguments or belittle your opinion, just pointing out that not every reason had to do with health.

  • What an interesting string of information and opinions. It is disappointing to see some of the negative feedback directed at someone who is only searching for a balance. He is simply asking his community for their experiences, I see nothing wrong with that! We are here to learn from each other.

    I am also surprised to not see mention of nutritional yeast, brewers yeast, and chia seeds here. I am not a strict raw or vegan eater either so please don't flame me if those things are not raw! Though I think that chia seeds are. Anyway, every morning for breakfast I eat chia tapioca with fresh fruit, topped with hemp seeds and bee pollen.

    I read that chia seeds were a staple for the Indians; they would eat a teaspoon full when going on a 24hr march and it would sustain them for that time. Chia seeds are really interesting, here's a good article on them:


    Chia Tapioca Recipe

    1 cup cashews soaked, ?2 cups water, ?1-2 tbsp raw honey?, 1 tbsp vanilla?, 1/4 cup chia seeds

    Blend nuts and water. Add sweetener and vanilla, blend. Pour in bowl, add chia seeds. You can eat in as little as 30 minutes to an hour but I wait overnight, it gets thicker overnight.

    The yeast is said to be very high in protein and it's also got a good flavor :-) I put it on almost all my savory dishes!

    And a really basic, probably dumb question: do you brush 2x a day and floss?

  • It is entirely possible - likely even - that ALL of the variation in our external bodies extends inside and we don't all have the same dietary requirements. Also, our lifestyles and activity levels influence our nutritional needs. For example, when I began to exercise more, I was dizzy fairly often. Adding more protein to my diet was the solution. Had I added more fruit, I think I would have passed out.

    Your body is telling you what you need. I, like you, want to do research and be rational and have lots of evidence for every decision. However, if your body is not doing well with someone else's formula for optimal nutrition, perhaps you should just sit with yourself and be open to what you already know instinctively.

    Personally, I believe our GRATITUDE to (Divinity, the earth, the universe, etc) for our food matters more, morally, than whether or not we consume flesh or milk or eggs or honey. I feel best when I eat a lot of raw, mostly veges, but add some meat and eggs. I have tried many times to cut out meat but I really feel awful after a few days. So I eat it when my body requests it, and I eat eggs more frequently as my body asks for them more frequently. I do it with a clean conscience and with gratitude.

    Blessings to you in finding your path to optimal health!

  • Jenoz said: "perhaps you should just sit with yourself and be open to what you already know instinctively. "

    I really like that advice! Sometimes just to sit with yourself and be open is VERY difficult. Strange as that may sound. But, I think it's great advice.

  • ambiguousambiguous Raw Newbie

    Why not vegetables for vegan calories and nutrition without worrying about the tooth problems high-fruit eaters have? Carrots are tasty and good for your teeth. Celery is also great to eat as a snack, if you like it. Most other vegetables can be made tasty with a small amount of processing--think huge salad with a good dressing, or any veggies you can think of chopped up and steeped in a marinade for a while (like this recipe: http://goneraw.com/node/16412). Some healthy fats in the dressing or marinade will make things tastier and more filling. I think vegetables are the often neglected key to a healthful raw vegan diet.

  • "anyway, i don't mean to start any arguments or belittle your opinion, just pointing out that not every reason had to do with health."

    Thanks for mentioning it! I don't want to hijack this thread either but I would say that I do strongly believe the bible and I don't believe that God said that we could eat meat because of health reasons. As some say that God chose meat as the way to make humans live to be 120 instead of 1000. And that over the years, the age number has dropped even more.

    Anyhow, thank you all for your comments!! I really appreciate it. I'm sorry I've not wrote any of you guys back in a while.

    Yeah, so I think I just need to listen to my body... and be at peace. That's the other thing I've learned that's really helpful. It seems that a food can almost be as good or as bad as one thinks it to be. Some sort of mind over matter thing. I.E, if I think organic red meat to be bad for me... its probably going to make me sick when/if I eat it.

    Anyhow, another thing I've learned is that eating more calories... does NOT mean eating more. It just means eating foods that have more calories in them. Like, coconuts have tons more calories than apples do. At any rate, me listening to my body more... for now, also means that I need to be juicing more. As well as eating more fats. I got a wheatgrass juicer off of Freecycle (BTW, thats a GREAT place to get free things) and I've just started to grow my own wheatgrass. So, I will be juicing everyday.

    Still, I think there is still a science to being healthy and one thing is still puzzling. That is that Ramiel Nagel strongly speaks against being Vegan. He says that milk is not vegan and that he strongly encourages breast feeding. (Which, BTW, I kind of have to agree with him). Even Dr. Sculze (who is vegan, and I've got a lot of respect for him) says that if he had to drink milk... he would drink human milk from a healthy human. And I think its also interesting that Goats milk is said to be the closest thing to human milk there is (so it might be a better option?) Anyhow, I'm getting off here. The puzzling thing is that Ramiel has some sort of a program, or outline for curing tooth decay and also being health and not getting sick. And, needless to say... its quite strict. However, this is not some guy that went to college and is recommending powdered milk to be added to all foods, and for cancer patients to have protein formulas for supper. No, this is a guy that does not tell you to do anything that he himself has not done. He gives recommendations based on his own experience. And, the puzzling thing is... IT WORKS. You can read the testimonials... many people have said that they tried it and it worked.

    So, yeah... I still don't know what to do. Main thing is I just need to be at peace. I've still not eaten meat. To be honest, my main reason for not doing so is because its acidic and I know that being alkaline is really good. Though maybe Ramiel is right and you really can balance it with tons of veggies and fermented foods, and RAW foods.

    At any rate, for now... I'm just going to do what I can do. I do like to think about the animals I'm eating... and only eat organic (raw preferred). I'm going to start making sprouted wheat bread... and I've also been replacing some of my oatmeal breakfasts with a raw smoothie. To make that, I usually first take 2 TBSP of flax seeds and 2 TBSP shredded coconut, blend that up in a coffee grinder. Then I put that in the blender. Add 1-2 TBSP Organic, Raw Coconut oil. Then I add 2-3 frozen bananas. Then I usually put 2-4 raw eggs in it, and I often top that off with a dash of vanilla. Sometimes I put a tad bit of coconut milk (sadly, its not raw unless I make it myself... which I should start doing). I tell you what though... it is GOOD!!! I would like to start making raw egg green smoothies... but I'm not sure how that would work out. So far, I've not found ANY recipes... so I think I'll just have to be brave and try it.

    I do know I need to cut down grains... and start eating more raw foods. I am fermenting foods more... and although I've had some really bad experiences with that (black sauerkraut that stinks up the whole house and such)... some of it has gone really great. I think my dad still does not like the slightly tart Organic Ginger Kombucha I made. He's like, "man, I've given up alchohol a long time ago!"

    Anyhow, I'm thinking I should go through some detox program. Maybe a fast?? My experience has been that even IF a juice fast does not have all the minerals you need, its a great way to give the digestive system a break (as mine gets taxed sometimes) and also a great way to move into healthier eating.

    So yeah, I'm very open minded... and believing for the very best!

    God Bless You All!


  • Hi Shawn! You said on the top post you eat oils, avocado, seeds, coconut etc. Just wanted to share that when i was eating higher fat i had no energy, i felt weak, and unhealthy. When I started eating a low-fat diet with loads of fruit with some veggies and greens every once and a while is when I started feeling and looking my best. For the first time in my life I am waking up feeling rested (my body doesn't want to sleep in any more), I have energy to do a lot of fitness, my complexion is crystal clear and the list goes on.

    1. When you say the body needs cholesterol, your body does not need outside sources of cholesterol. Your body produces all the cholesterol it needs.

    2. A lot of studies show a lot of different things that are completely false. There are studies that show aspartame isn't harmful to your health so I would be really careful of sources when you're reading up on nutrition.

    3. A lot of vegetarians are still unhealthy. Giving up meat does not solve health problems. Grains are really acidic, low in calcium and high in phosphorus so it will affect your ph. Your body will leach calcium from bones to neutralize the acidity. You can be a really healthy vegan if you choose to skip grains.

    4. No other species consumes milk after infancy and no other species drinks the breast milk of another species. Cows milk is for baby cows, the way nature intended. Cows milk is intended to grow large cows, we are not cows. It is weird to me that people would think it strange to drink human breast milk when they are adults yet they don't think twice about consuming breast milk from another species.

    5. The so called myths are very true. I've seen first hand how some good, fertile land is now a desert from cows constantly walking over it. When there are people that stand to gain from this misinformation (the meat industry) you have to be really careful about your research. When you can eat the plants and be healthy why would you eat an animal to get the nutrients from the plants? It does take a lot more energy to grow animals then it does plant food because you still have to grow the plant food for the animals and the animals still need water and it takes resources to move these animals to slaughterhouses and then to distribution. You say you don't want to be associated with people who preach things that aren't true. Do omnivores never preach anything that isn't true? I actually see a lot of omnivores preaching things that aren't true to justify their addictions to meat. I see a lot of vegans that want to do something better for other creatures than themselves so I love to be associated with that.

    6. It has been easier for me to be vegan that it was when I ate meat. If you are eating loads of ripe raw fruit and veggies and greens and you are getting enough calories, then you will be getting everything you need. With b12, absorption is usually the problem and that problem is not solved when you eat animal products. Absorption does get better when you eat a clean diet of fruits and veggies. If you are eating healthy then your body will synthesize everything it can't get from food and the sun. I don't do any supplementation and all my levels are fine. Also b12 is not just a vegan issue. There are plenty of omnivores that supplement b12, so eating animal products does not solve that.

    7. This study does not mean anything in regards to vegetarianism. This study shows the difference between cultures that eat processed food and cultures that eat unprocessed food. The cultures that had unhealthy teeth were the cultures that ate processed food regardless if they eat meat or not.

    8. The bible also said to stone adulterous wives, yet we don't use that as evidence to do so.

    9. I eat a low-fat diet of fruits and vegetables and get all the fats I need and in a very good ratio. I would never want to be clogged by animal fats.

    10. You are making very general assumptions about all vegans. I am a vegan and I don't eat any grains. I eat all organic produce and am actually working on being sustainable right now and growing all my own food. An acre of fruit trees can feed far more people than an acre of grains or livestock because a fruit tree lasts more than a lifetime.

    11. Again, milk is for growing infants not for adults. Let's let the baby cows keep their milk because they are the ones nature designed it for.

    12. I don't need any supplementation. I know a lot of omnivores that are still supplementing. Again, this is not an isolated vegan issue.

    13. If it can't be eaten raw then it shouldn't be in the diet. Can you eat animal products raw, unprocessed, unaltered in any way and have it be palatable? I know I can't. I sure do love ripe, raw fruits. I don't need to cook them or flavor them at all to be palatable. I don't need any special tools like knifes and forks to eat fruit either.

    14. Again, the bible is not a good reference and there are many people that aren't christian. The bibile says to do a lot of things that would be illegal in this day and age. The body can survive on many different things, but surviving and thriving are very different things. If you look at our digestive tracts, they are very long like those of apes. They are not short like carnivores digestive tracts. The meat goes through theirs very quickly so that it doesn't putrefy unlike ours. Meat takes a long time to digest in our bodies because we don't have the same capabilities like carnivores do. We don't have the enzyme uricase like carnivores do (uricase converts uric acid into a less harmful substance). We don't have near as strong hydrochloric acids in our digestive systems like carnivores do. We do not relish in the taste of raw blood, organs, bones and meat like carnivores do. I do relish in the sweet, juicy taste of a ripe, fresh fruit though.

    15. There are a lot of unhealthy vegans that eat a vegan version of the standard american diet. There are a lot of vegans that eat processed mock meats that are hard to digest, that eat food in bad combinations, and there are vegans that don't eat any fresh produce so yeah they would get diseases and health issues. I've never heard of any raw vegans getting colon problems. Fruit and veggies are easy to digest.

    16. My vision has gotten better since eating a fruit and veggie diet. Also, Dr. Schulze's products are not healthy. Would you ever put cayenne in your eye in nature? No, that's crazy, it burns for a reason. Dr. Schuze's products are not designed to build health, they do not solve the problem. They are a shortcut for those that don't want to fix the problems in their diet (and the shortcut doesn't work anyway). His products are a green version of allopathy, fixing the symptoms but not fixing the source of the problem. If you are eating a healthy diet you would not need any products like that. Also, the superfood formula is not healthy. I tried it three times and I threw it up instantly every time. My body was rejecting it for very clear reasons. The mixture is a bad combination and it has things I would never naturally consume.

    17. It is possible to gain weight on a healthy raw diet if that is what is necessary, but only if you eat enough. You can't consume under 2,000 calories and expect to not lose weight. I can easily reach 2,500 calories on fruit alone. I am muscular and am at a good healthy weight on fruits and veg alone.

    18. I don't eat any of the things you listed and I am in great health. I get all the calcium, iron, and vitamin A that I need. Ever seen how much calcium is in citrus fruits? I also only pay anywhere from $50-70 per week on organic produce. When you buy unneccessary superfoods, oils, supplements, etc. is when it gets pricey. Fruit is a carb, not a complex carb. It has protein and fat and it gives my body all the energy it needs. Your body needs carbohydrates for energy. If you are eating a low-carb diet your body will turn everything into simple sugars so that it can get energy and that is at the expense of your kidneys and it uses up a lot of energy. Your body is fueled by simple sugars, so it is a good idea to feed it simple sugars (ripe fruit is easily absorbed and digested).

    At one point more than a year ago I did try raw milk and eggs for a few months and it did nothing to build my health, but actually made me gain weight when I didn't need to. I am the healthiest I have ever been since switching over to a fruit based diet. You can never go wrong with fruit and veggies. It wouldn't hurt to try and uptake your fruit intake and eat less fat and see how you feel. Low-fat did wonders for me.

    Wish you all the best :)

  • Ultimately, it's your mind and your body and you have to do what you think is best.

    If you are really this preoccupied with all the reasons being a vegan is wrong, drop the label immediately. In fact, I'd say drop the label in any case. Just eat what you makes you feel your best, and don't feel like you have to stick to all-raw or all-vegan. Different strokes for different folks.

    And... try a pro and con list, since most all you have are the negs here...

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