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Warning for Raw Kids

amysueamysue Raw Newbie

I found this at We Like It raw: http://www.shazzie.com/raw/articles/raw_vegan_c… It gave me a lot to think about as a raw Mom, and although my daughter isn’t 100% raw vegan I’ve wondered if it might be the best choice…or not. Hope this gives you some useful information.


  • pianissimapianissima Raw Newbie

    hmmm… what about storm and jinjee’s children?

  • CarmentinaCarmentina Raw Newbie

    Wow. A great read. I salute her courage in writing it. Food for thought. Thanks for posting.

  • I think this article is “on point.” I’ve seen raw children who “survive” on flax crackers, raw chocolate and nuts with scant fruits and vegetables. There is such a thing as a “junk food” raw vegan!

  • I am currently only 17 but when I do have kids, I would put them on herbs and things like bee pollen, wheat grass juice and fruit & veggie juices. These have more nutrients then what most think they do. More protein than beef, a lot more. Also has B12. They say that it is a complete food, meaning you could live off of it.

  • spiritedmamaspiritedmama Raw Newbie

    I thought this was a great article! I really commend Shazzie for standing up for these children and this information. As parents, we owe it to our children to make sure we have done the research in making sure they are getting everything they need from this diet. A growing child’s body is much different than that of an already grown adult, and we need to make sure we recognize and acknowledge this.

  • hey pianissima…long time…

    i remember watching the ‘breakthrough’ dvd with my mum and us both being ‘blown away’ at the health of these children

    shazzie-style raw is a particular type of raw….i would think that this kind of raw diet is bound to cause problems that are much more evident in children….

    the same problems exist for adult raw fooders, but with years of bad dietary problems, adullts do much better in comparison to what they had been doing

    kids don’t have years of the same abuse….high fat , bad combined raw-recipes are never gonna provide the nutrition that kids need

    i’d say look to the taliferos and doug and roz grahams daughter for evidence that it can be done….

    you can be an unhealthy vegetarian, vegan and raw vegan…but it’s also possible to thrive

  • storm and jinjee include lots of nuts and also bee products – raw honey and such in their children’s diets, so they are getting some of those missing nutrients. they live in a sunny place and have more opportunity to get some of the vitamins and minerals that those in other locations can’t get. shazzie is referring to 100% raw and 100% vegan and 100% unsupplemented. this is not the case with the taliferos – as they are not 100% raw or 100% vegan. also, many of the malnourished children referred to were not breastfed on demand during infancy and toddlerhood – this makes a big difference.

    with that said, i completely agree with shazzies position. thanks amysue for this link.

  • Yes breast fed is the best. If that is not available…the ONLY somewhat healthy alternative, or so I read, is one third carrot juice, one third raw organic goats milk and one third part water. That was on www.hacres.com. I do not like thought of goats milk but it is said to be very similar to human milk. They also say it MUST BE raw and organic. I guess its kind of like how you would not drink your moms milk being that you are an adult, but it is good for you when you were a baby.

    Yes, Soy infant formulas ought to be banned. They do TERRIBLE things to these kids.

  • I’m sorry, but this article was just an opinion piece that offered no real evidence. I’m glad someone is trying to look out for the children, but there should be real, tangible evidence in the article if it’s going to convince people that raw is unhealthy for kids.

    Also, breastfeeding is a big part of it. The natural weaning age for humans is between 2.5 and 7 years. Only 70% of mothers even try breastfeeding, 36% are breastfeeding until 6 months, and 17% are breastfeeding at 12 months. 12 months is the absolute bare minimum recommended age and only 17% of moms nurse that long. It’s very difficult to find stats on women nursing to natural weaning age because it is such a rarity.

    Now this is not going to be a popular idea, but if a woman can’t breastfeed, she needs to give her child an organic baby/toddler formula until the child is at the very least 1, preferably until 2.5. Of course wet nursing or buying breastmilk at milkbanks are options too. I’ve seen too many dangerous ideas on the net about making your own baby formula and stuff like that is what is damaging and/or killing children. Even Jinjee Talifero recommended a homemade formula concoction made from coconuts.

    I guess what I’m saying is that a child how nurses until at least 2.5 is likely going to be healthy on a raw foods diet rich in seeds, nuts, fruits, and veggies(organic). It’s just that the first couple of years are the most important for brain development and they need mother’s milk.

  • amysueamysue Raw Newbie

    It may be one person’s opinion but it made us all look at what we’re doing as parents and work even harder to make the right choices. I was shocked by this because I thought Shazzie would promote a supplement-free raw diet so it was especially compelling coming from her. I’m not saying it’s the final word but it’s definitely worth discussing.

    I am a huge proponent of breastfeeding, I breastfed my daughter for three years, no bottles, no formula, started her on a whole food vegetarian diet at 6 months, and her teeth are TERRIBLE!! She’s had more cavities than I can count and two abscesses, one sending us to the emergency room when the infection got close to her eye! My point is that I thought I had all my bases covered and I was so wrong. I will take any information I can get.

  • I am 13 and 100% unsupplemented raw vegan and super healthy.

  • I’m sorry, but this article was just an opinion piece that offered no real evidence. I’m glad someone is trying to look out for the children, but there should be real, tangible evidence in the article if it’s going to convince people that raw is unhealthy for kids.

    Justine, shazzie was not trying to convince people that raw is unhealthy for kids. she was giving a medically valid point (however poorly cited) that 100% raw, 100% vegan and 100% unsupplemented was unhealthy for kids. there’s a difference between that and an extrememly high raw, vegan, unsupplemented diet of which most raw kids are on. it is rare to be 100% in all three areas.

    You are correct about the breastfeeding justine, as i mentioned in an above post, i believe the malnourished children she’s referring to are those who haven’t breastfed, do not see a naturopath/doctor/nutritionist or other professional for monitoring and truly are 100% in the aforementioned areas. also, as mentioned, the thriving kids on the ‘raw diet’, are not by definition 100% raw/vegan/unsupplemented.

    she did emphasize the breastfeeding as well. i totally agree with you, it is very dangerous to read about some baby concoction recipe online and use that as a replacement for formula or breastmilk for infants. those who can’t breastfeed should use a wetnurse or the best formula they can afford. (as a side note: there’s no such thing as “organic” formula. what is organic at all about formula? just because the “ingredients” are “all natural” and “organic” doesn’t make it so.)

    natural_vegan, are you truly 100% in all areas? have you been so since birth? i’m interested in your story. my children and i would fall in the high category.

    EDIT I just read your profile, natural_vegan, that you’ve been 100% only since the beginning of this year. Shazzie’s article is referring to children raised from birth in this way and the negative results showing up during early/late childhood.

  • I’m not trying to discredit shazzie. I think she brings up very good points that we need to pay attention to. However, I want to see the evidence and examples behind those points so that I can interpret them for myself.

    By organic, I meant that the ingredients are grown organically(whether milk or soy) and that the sweetener is a natural sweetener as opposed to the corn syrup used in conventional formula.

    Now, I recognize that the Talifero children use bee products which aren’t vegan, but I thought that Doug Graham’s child was 100% raw vegan,unsupplemented. Does anyone have any info on this? I know that he recommends nursing for the first several years of life and that a child’s diet should include no-cooked or processed foods. Preferably veggies, fruit, nuts, and seeds until about age 10 when they can follow 811rv.

  • Justine, have you found any more info about Doug Graham’s family experience and health effects? I’m curious too! I don’t have a problem with my kids being a little smaller than their peers. I don’t wan’t them the size of most of their peers! Most of it is genetic – my husband and I are small people. I think Shazzie’s point in describing the outward mental and physical signs of malnourishment according to the medical community was the most harrowing – not necessarily a kid on the slender side.

    How old is your little one? that is such a cute picture, justine.

    (I know what you meant about the formula, I was being a little tongue in cheek!)

    For my family, we just feel better when we incorporate quinoa, buckwheat, oats, eggs, and occasionally yogurt into our diet. and my children do take supplements as well

    Often, raw foodists (the rare 100%) incorrectly cite the Talifero’s as proof that the pure 100% thing can be done in that Storm is a 30 year raw fooder and thriving, muscular and healthy. but he does do the nuts (even the ones that aren’t really raw) and the bee products. I would be really interested in seeing research on others who’ve maintained that long at 100% without those things. does that exist….yet?

  • RawKidChefRawKidChef Raw Newbie

    This is exactly why I keep stressing the need for brewers or nutritional yeast. Not raw, but harmless on the body. I suggest this over a lot of nuts and seeds.

    I am 12, and have been raw most of my life. I am about 5 feet tall, skinny but not frail, energetic and no teeth problems. I do currently have braces, they’ll get taken off soon.

  • My daughter is almost 19 months. That’s an older picture, she was about 13 months old in it, Here’s a recent one http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/justine…

    I agree that everyone needs to do what’s right for them. I consider myself and my daughter to be cooked vegans with about 85% of our diet coming from fresh, raw fruits and veggies. She’s also on the slender side, but very tall according to growth charts, so I’m doing something right I guess. I don’t see 100% raw truly happening for us in this household since my partner is a meat-loving, fried food-eating, Dr. Pepper drinking kinda guy. So if I cook a hearty vegan meal for dinner, it’s generally a compromise so that we can all eat together.

    Honestly, while I disagree with the use of bee products from an ethical standpoint, if that’s what’s working to keep the Talifero kids healthy, that’s the best choice for them. I’ve heard that some of the benefits could be obtained from flower pollen, but there’s not much evidence out there right now. I wonder if a diet with edible, wild flowers in it would make a difference. Or even with any wild edibles that have been unwashed, so that you are consuming some of the dirt with the B-12 making bacteria naturally in it.

  • Justine: you speak so eloquently about doing what’s right for you and your family. My hats off to you.

    Just last night, I went out to eat with DH on one of our rare “date” nights away from the kids, and we went to like 3 restaurants and none of them had anything I could eat, besides a small mesclun salad and I was HUNGRY LOL..and he turned to me and said “you know, I totally support your raw foods diet, but when we go out to eat, could you compromise and eat a little cooked food?” So I did. He’s very supportive, about 50-75% raw himself, but I ate a little cooked vegan food with him, and I am okay. It’s not perfect health-wise, but to keep my relationship strong and not alienate him, it’s what I did.

    And RKC: my kids eat nutritional yeast and love it.

  • Another good reason to play in the dirt with our kids… there is a wealth of healthy probiotic bacteria found in soil.

  • RKC, I’ve also turned to nutritional yeast since basically eliminating nuts. I know it’s not raw, but I love it. It tastes great and is highly nutritious.

    nycgrrl, I often fall into the same predicament with my hubby (who isn’t raw or even vegan). He is very understanding of my dietary choices, but sometimes expresses frustration on how it impacts our time out together. I usually find something on the menu, but when I can’t, like you I’ll eat a little cooked vegan food. Ultimately, my relationship is more important than my food choices.

  • Mon, Justine and mamamilk-you sound like cool chicks. Are you on giveittomeraw.com? PM me there (same user name) and we can chit chat!

  • nycgrrl, I check into that website occasionally, but have never used it to send messages. Great idea! I have to go back to work now, but I’ll def. do it later.

  • cool! i am off line til tonight, but i will check in.

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