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Raw Fish?

My Health is really bad at the moment, I'm not 100 Raw yet and I already ahve health issues, Im vegetarian through morals but recently my health has got so bad a voice in my head keeps saying 'Raw Fish'

Before going Veggie I rarely ate Fish, but I loved Raw Salmon (only fish I'd tried raw) I mean techincally it's raw, uncooked and such and I dont know if Im just persuading myself, but something says 'well it's not the same as meat'

Im having a tennis match in my mind morals VS health. Please note my morals mean a lot to me but so does my health (and Im in quite bad condition at the mo deficincies, sickness, allergies, possibly anemic I will be getting tested and very dehydrated)

I need you to cheerlead for what YOU think is right because I need a voice that doesnt come from a tiny person sat on either side of my shoulder.



  • A vegan forum isn't the place to discuss this.

  • You don't need fish, you don't need fish, you don't need fish...

    Think logically, what are you getting out of it that you can't get elsewhere, and the answer is nothing. Give 100% raw vegan a shot for a significant amount of time before you start doubting yourself.

  • *If you plan on making a fuss about me discussing animal foods, don't read this post (even though ignoring certain types of information is plain stupid).*

    Are you a vegan, or just a vegetarian? If you're a vegetarian, you are getting your required long-chain fatty acids and B-12 from other animal products. If not, this is probably why you are craving fish. Now the source of the fish is a huge factor in deciding whether or not it agrees with your morals. I don't see how you could feel morally sound in just eating any old fish, but caught by independent fishermen from clean waters? Maybe (although if you live inland, you may not have a chance at this). You are the only one who can decide if you agree with it. If you are vegan and you feel that something is lacking from your diet, you're right! The only entirely humane source of DHA/EPA that I know of is cage-free, collected eggs from a source that does not use force-molting, wing trimming, beak clipping, and does not have any affiliation with the poultry industry/kill the males. Eggs have been in our diet longer than fish, meat, and of course dairy. They're a rather natural part of the human diet, it seems. Maybe try adding those and see if the fish craving goes away.

    A lot of people on here will tell you that their way is the only way, and I was like that at one point too, but it turns out that people are better off experimenting, taking everything in, and remembering that what they know is not all there is to know! I wouldn't feel as great as i do now if I ignored all of the well-intentioned people who tried the raw vegan diet and realized that it was flawed. You don't need to fulfill a title. Just do your best and don't restrict yourself unless it makes sense to.

  • Well, alexa, D.S. is right: this is a vegan forum for vegan discussion. And he didn't call anyone stupid either. But I don't think that the original post is completely out of bounds since it is kind of asking for vegan advice. And yes: yours is!

    Anyway, yeah experiment a lot. But if you are judging being raw vegan, you have to be 100% raw, 100% vegan, and ideally something low fat. If you are like 70% raw binging on nuts and cookies every third day, then you won't get accurate data.

    About DHA/EPA, I even know what that is and I doubt that most non-vegans who make such claims as above really know either. But, a couple seconds of internet research would suggest that there are indeed vegan sources: vegan dha epa

  • camiheartsrawcamiheartsraw Raw Newbie

    All I have to say is parasites. Salmon has the highest incidence of parasites of any other type of fish you could choose because it moves between salt and fresh water. Fresh water fish are riddled with parasites. Sea only fish are a little better, but there's still a higher risk than sticking to a vegetarian diet. If your health is bad, you should seriously consider having a GI panel done to check for parasites and intestinal bacteria. It ended up being at the root of some of my issues, and after treating them my health has improved quite a bit. I used to like sashimi, but I won't go near it anymore. After you have a couple bouts in the ER with intestinal nasties, you learn VERY quickly that it just isn't worth it. Why put your health further at risk? If your body is already having issues, I would urge you not to intentionally take risks.

    I used to take fish oil, but find that I can get what I need from a combo of nut and hemp oils. I've found that MSM plus vitamin C has been very helpful for inflammation and arthritis in addition to a raw vegan diet with a lot of variety.


  • Thanks for insulting me, as if I never did as simple google search on vegan DHA/EPA while I was vegan. Yes, I tried algae. It doesn't work, neither do flax oils and similar things. They are not bioavailable, and you would have to consume ridiculous amounts to get the sort of benefit you would get from something like a small serving of eggs. Companies commonly lie about the content of their algae tinctures. It just is not a reliable food. Another thing that you need to take into account: a few decades ago, nobody even knew that DHA/EPA exist. Are you under the assumption that humans have discovered every nutrient in animal products, and that by supplementing the few that we know of, vegans are totally covered? What we know ? all there is to know. If you need to supplement with something that has never been a part of the human diet, you're doing it wrong. What's wrong with humane eggs, anyway?

    And I never suggested that anyone called another person stupid, either. I suggested that people who ignore my post due to the disclaimer or pass judgement because I am no longer vegan are at the very least misguided.

    Don't assume that because I did not love the raw vegan diet that I did it improperly. I was 100% raw, 100% vegan. I was not gorging myself on nuts. I tried many things, including 80-10-10 and other high fruit, low nut (even no-nut) variations. I wanted to feel my best on a raw vegan diet, really! I love eating raw food, and I did not like eating eggs as much as I like eating fruit by any means. I didn't "cave" and give in to my temptations. My brain was not working as well, and I could tell. One serving of eggs solved every problem I was having with motivation, and just high brain function in general. Why not try it once and see what I mean? You won't realize how important it is until you step out of animal product consumption and back in again. Is your brain not more precious to you than the moral high ground of avoiding the collection of unfertilized eggs from a happy, free-roaming chicken?

  • Yeah, parasites are a big problem. Probably my main issue about eating fish. But you consume parasites every day- on fruit and veggies, in your water, and just from being around other living creatures. You have thousands in you at any given time. The only way to control them is to be diligent about cleansing and taking antiparasitic herbs.

  • Hrm? I wasn't talking about you, I was talking to R.P. about generalities. Its her thread, her problem that we're helping her with. Promoting animal products here is like promoting Christianity in a Hindu forum. I just don't get it... its not "gone healthy, sharing recipes and advice", where its left totally open-ended to go back and forth on these issues. Its "gone raw, sharing raw vegan recipes and advice". It is very narrow, if you think its too narrow then find a forum that more suits yourself - don't let us hold you back! I wasn't intending to insult you but what you said was wrong.

    I don't see anything immoral about eggs from trustworthy farmers. In my opinion, they are logically the most "natural" human animal food, because we might happen to find some while scavenging for fruit. However, again, there are forums that give advice about eggs, fish, or whatever other animal products that some people find success with.

  • Well, she asked for advice on a forum full of people who were going to tell her that her cravings for fish were simply her own weakness, and I wanted to give her an alternative standpoint, as I was in her shoes not too long ago. I think what I suggested was more of a compromise between the two. I have yet to hear a good argument against eating eggs. Seems like most people just cut them out because they aren't part of the label.

  • Are you kidding me? Uhm, grinding up/suffocation/other killing of male chicks, battery and 'free-range' farm conditions are enough knowledge to keep me from eating a hen's egg. Some of us here are really vegans, not just following some diet for our own health.

  • Some of us function just fine, Alexa, as far as our brains (and other body parts), without animal products. The sooner you accept that, the sooner your posts might be more accepting of others.

    Your free-roaming chickens still came from a hatchery which kills all male chicks, unless she was a rescue. IF you want to call concern for other creatures and living in harmony with them "moral high ground" because you feel inadequate about yourself, that's fine. I don't care. I hope you come to terms with your decision eventually such that you don't feel a need to phrase your posts in a way as if there's something wrong with caring more about other beings than your desire for some fatty egg. Try an egg and see what you mean? Uhm, moral concerns aside, I have no desire for something that smells bad. I eat a fruit diet. Why would I want something that smells like sewage. lol

    And fruits and vegetables have omega 3s.

  • ktkt

    alexa, it is almost impossible to exist in the western world without having pro-animal product 'information' shoved down our throat. if u think u r providing 'information' that we all havent heard before, think again. there are plenty of forums that would embrace your stance, what exactly are you getting from bringing your rants here?

  • Are you suggesting, Alexa, that omnivores who don't eat eggs are supposedly deficient in the magical nutrients that you think you're getting from them? I'm curious, because you seem to think vegans are the only ones who don't eat eggs. People are allergic; people don't liek the taste and smell; people don't like the fat; people dont' like the texture; people have ethical issues with them; people can't afford them or they aren't available. Are you seriously trying to suggest that everyone in teh world who chooses to not eat eggs is deficient and lacks the brain functioning you have?

    Your posts seem way off.....but I don't want to be rude and connect it to your brain functioning. I think that you're just really defensive and dislike yourself in some way.

  • nice ad hominem argument, superfood2! great way to make an argument.

  • Well, I think the posts speak for themselves and I'll leave it at that.

  • You are being very hostile. I love the vegan philosophy, and if I can do something to minimize my use of animal products, I do. I am still an animal myself, and just like every other animal, preserving my life and well-being is most important to me. I am perfectly accepting of all of you. You have your hearts in the right place, but let's not be closed-minded here.

    It seems you believe that I'm ignorant of what happens to "free-range" chickens. I do not just look for this label and throw them in a shopping basket under good conscience. I talk to independent farmers, ask them exactly what their practices are, and if it's anything below my extremely high standards, I don't purchase them. It's very obvious that you are trying to offend me in various ways. As I said, I had absolutely no desire to eat eggs before I considered the flaws of the vegan diet. I was actually very, very upset about the conclusion that I came to, and I was hesitant in trying them. After I did, it became clear that they were necessary for my health and happiness. No vegan food has ever brought me to that point. I am unable to compare it to anything else.

    "Magical Nutrients"- Oh boy. Think about what you just wrote.

    No, I am not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that these nutrients are present in all animal products, and eggs are the only animal product that actually can be humane entirely. There are fundamental flaws in dairy and meat consumption that make it completely impossible to call them humane no matter how extreme the precautions. Would you deny that finding an unfertilized egg in a wild environment, picking it up and consuming it is perfectly humane, harmless and natural? There isn't anything wrong with collecting eggs from a bird that has no boundaries and may come and go as she pleases.

    I'm not looking to offend. I'm just speaking in complete honesty. I don't think I should have to sugarcoat things on an open forum. I am bringing my "rants" here because I am hoping you can relate to me a bit better. Let me clarify that I was extremely passionate about a 100% raw, 100% vegan diet. I collected information about it like it was my job, and I saw a lot of improvements. I take many (most) of the things that I learned on that journey with me despite eating eggs. The information regarding brain function and animal products really found me rather than the other way around, and it isn't that I never heard these things while I was vegan. I did, and I heard all of the justification that went along with that (like what you're doing). I took every step to assure that I had what I needed in my diet. I even calculated my intake of individual nutrients. I am not some idiot who grew up eating animal products and thinks that everyone else should to because "LOL WE'RE OMNIVORES YOU NEED ANIMAL PROTEIN". I am just as disapproving of that mentality as you are. I have just really put my heart into this, and because I got over the initial restrictive hurdle that I was behind, I am really, really feeling great. Honestly! I want you to feel this great.

    I feel that the personal attacks are really uncalled for. Implying that I have low self esteem because I'm offering my experience and backing up my claims? It's childish. I love myself just as much as I love anything else. Please communicate reasonably with me.

    I don't want to talk exclusively with people who "embrace my stance". I am not looking for praise. I'm hoping that somebody will at least read this and tuck it away in their mind so that if they are feeling that way I was feeling, they may put the pieces together and look into it a bit. That's what I did. I did not just read some omnivore propaganda and use it as a desperate exit from veganism. I'm glad that I was open enough to overcome my hesitation.

    I think it's interesting, eecho, that you related the raw vegan lifestyle to religion. That's sort of what it has become. Religion requires that you ignore all opposing information in order to maintain your world view, because otherwise you may come to some uncomfortable realizations that will require you to reshape your behaviors, and that's more difficult than learning and making an informed choice. Religion is not about questioning things deeply, it is more about continually justifying your ideas and actions.

    "Your posts seem way off.....but I don't want to be rude and connect it to your brain functioning. I think that you're just really defensive and dislike yourself in some way."

    Well you are being rude. You knew it was rude before you said it.

    I have plenty of information that I built my conclusion on that I am not even voicing here, so unless one of you are brave enough to state your interest, I won't get into it.

  • alexa--you are not alone! I love raw vegan food, but it wasn't giving me what I needed, after a year and a half. No one should ever be made to feel bad about themselves for a food choice. The point of any dietary choice is not to hold ourselves to some restrictive regimen, some perfect scorecard, but to nourish our bodies. For some, a raw, vegan diet may work (though honestly, the scientific research on childhood veganism is pretty damning; and not so fabulous for the rest of us either -- I too have done research with an unbiased eye), but for me (and I am the only person I am willing to make judgments about!) incorporating some raw goat cheese, some raw fish, and the cooked food (including some meat once a week or so) when I desire it has led me to a much healthier relationship to food.

    The only diet ever to be proven as destructive to human health, has been the SAD, but for me, taking out almost all processed foods, buying as local/sutsainably and in-season as possible and limiting wheat, soy, and pastuerized dairy, and eating at least 60% raw foods, I have been able to achieve healthy relationship to food; something I certainly didn't have when I ate the SAD, and something I didn't devleop eating a fully raw, vegan lifestyle. But the point is, that's my experience, and to judge it as wrong or immoral will not win you any converts. Science tells us that the more whole, fresh foods we eat, the healthier we will be. Raw isn't realistic for everyone. Eating more raw foods than they are now is. Being dogmatic about a raw foods lifestyle only pushes the cast majority of people away.

    I went to a memorial today for a 90 year old friend. She was a lifelong animal product eater, but she was very much into local, organic, and sustainable foods for the last 20 years. She, she did not die of unnatural, animal product driven causes. she died becasue it was her time to go.

    I have been grateful for what I have learned form the raw foods movement, and in the process I have committed to eating very few processed foods, discovered a curiosity about growing food, sustainable food practices, and an endless creativity around food prep. I own a Blendtec, an Excalibur, food processor and juicer, and I use them every week, and some everyday, still. But to tell someone else they're wrong for their choice not to be 100% (raw) vegan is short-sighted. More power to you if ti works for you, but of it doesn't, don't beat yourslef up. Feed you're body what it is asking for -- not the cravings for donuts or McDonalds -- but for truly nourishing foods. Be intuitive about your eating, and if you miss the mark (I ate a cupcake my roommate made for a truly special occasion today), you have not sinned; you will not take days off your life: you just ate a cupcake. I will juice in the morning, and eat lightly tomorrow to clear out the wheat, sugar and dairy. And I will move on with my life, loving me (and you!) no matter what you ate today.

  • Hi, be carefull with raw-fish it's loaded with parasites (all though most cannot live in humans). Most fish are very lean (to much protein) it's not a really good food source. If you really must eat raw fish go for the fattest you can find and freeze 2 days or so before eating it. Cooked fish is a waste it's very hard to digest. The Inuit people let fish rot for days in freezing weather till it has a ice cream like texture, then it even easier to digest but it smells a bit 8).

  • Raw Passion,

    I'll tread very lightly here (or at least try to) to not stir up things. As one of the members here mention- it IS a raw vegan site. I respect that, but I truly believe that you deserve some honest opinions from people too. I admire your concern for other species, even when you yourself are having health issues. I also don't believe the ONLY possible answer is to return to animal products. Sometimes, it could be something like parasites. But, in your quest to uphold your morals, remember that you deserve consideration too! I believe we are part of nature, not outside of it. We too, have a strong survival urge. Just as chickens, fish, cows, tigers and such have. I don't believe it is "unnatural" to take your own health issues into consideration along with the animals. This is just my opinion on it.

    I think it's fair to say that there is strong evidence that not relying heavily on animal products in your diet is healthy. The same for eating lots of raw fruits, greens and veggies. The step from little animal products to none (going vegan), and high raw to a 100% raw is (IMHO) more of a moral and philosophical decision many times.

    And that's your dilemma- the moral part:-) Since this is a raw vegan site, you should be able to get some good vegan opinions. To round your self out, I would also suggest visiting some sites that question what you may see here. (I'm not talking about the dairy or pork councel, I think they are pretty bias:-)

    Getting "both" sides of an issue may help you better decide for yourself what to do. I personally have met very compassionate and loving vegans, and some very compassion and loving omnivores.

    A good site for you to visit may be "beyond vegetarian." It has a lot of discussion from people who have had similar struggles as yours. This is not to discourage you from being raw, or vegan or vegetarian. But, to give you a place to "explore" your issues with like minds. I don't agree with all the articles, but it's good to question things once in a while.

    Lastly, PLEASE get things checked out with your doctor and blood work done. It may not be your diet. If it is, blood work can help you pin point what isn't right so you can fix it.

    Good luck and best wishes for your health.

  • alexa, I think it's clear, again, to anyone reading the posts without getting emotional, that you are saying negative things about vegans, all the while acting like everyone is saying something bad about you. I guess maybe your omnivorism is like a religion that you feel you have to defend, even though no one really cares what you personally do; we were just trying to clear up the misinformation you posted.

  • Raw butter from pasture fed cows, highest quality animal product available imo and you don't have to sacrifice all your ideals.

  • I have a question, instead of going against your morals and eating meat, why dont you consume some whole cooked vegan foods such as grains, legumes etc if your health is really that bad. Your health comes first.

  • Butter sounds like a terrible, terrible, terrible idea. http://www.notmilk.com. read any of the articles, seems like you'd be better off eating steak.

    I think LEM has an alright idea... Raw Passion - with the small amount of actual advice that you have received so far, what are your thoughts at this point?

  • "Butter sounds like a terrible, terrible, terrible idea. http://www.notmilk.com. read any of the articles, seems like you'd be better off eating steak."

    I don't see any info on raw pasture butter?

    Butter has been used as a superfood for thousands and thousands of years with very real benefits

  • Butter, a superfood? What nutrients are you claiming that butter has that are superior to plant based foods, please? This is a great thread! lol

  • Superfood, why does this have to get personal? I am not saying bad things about vegans! I love vegans. I was a vegan for a long time, and I still very much have the mentality of a vegan (although you may get on my case for that statement). I think it's great that people are questioning their diets and making great changes. I am defending my stance because I am well researched and I think it would make nearly every single vegan (the exceptions being those of African or South American heritage, who are more likely to strive as raw vegans) here feel better to have just a little bit of eggs in their diet. It was a difficult thing for me to open up to as well. Maybe several months ago I would have been this hostile toward somebody who suggested this, but I've learned better. Plenty of raw vegans have come to this conclusion and added some animal products to their diets. I am aware that you aren't going to listen to me. This is not aimed at you. I don't see why you felt the need to comment five times on my posts with such a condescending tone.

  • You don't think telling vegans that they are choosing moral high ground as their only reason to not eat eggs and their brain would function better (just because you had brain issues) is condescending? Oh, right, you're just trying to help......trying to help people who have been vegan for many years, because our brain function is lacking. We just aren't smart enough to realize it. Riiighhtt. And you still didn't address the issue of your condescending attitude about non-egg-eaters and their brain functions. You stil haven't acknowledged that vegans aren't the only ones who don't eat eggs. There are millions of people who don't eat eggs.

    I told you, I don't care of you personally eating eggs and making your claims about your brain problems. What I do care about is the misinformation you spread.

  • *edit* was gonna post, but whatever

  • "What nutrients are you claiming that butter has that are superior to plant based foods, please?"

    Fat soluble vitamins specifically K2, A, D and E. Conjugated linoliec acid. Cholesterol. Plus other good stuff

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