Hello Beautiful!

It looks like you're new to The Community. If you'd like to get involved, click one of these buttons!

In this Discussion

Barack Obama Test



  • thecavsmanthecavsman Raw Newbie

    That’s what I’m talkin about aspire…

    I’ll be voting McKinney in the near future.

    Here is a piece that people can read who are secretly despising me for voting 3rd party:



    But honestly, if you fear a McCain Presidency more than an Obama and fear is what is driving your vote, it is pretty clear Obama will win. And if you live in a state in which Obama will definitely win, why not donate your vote to one of the great independent movements – or the overall non-corporate movement. At the same time you will have a good conscience as you did not put another militaristic president in office. Sounds good to me!

  • So true Cavsman!

    I just recently learned about the Green Party (McKinney) and am really excited about it! REALLY like what I’ve learned about their stances on issues so far. Will be exciting watching it grow over here in the U.S like it has been over in Europe.

  • rawlizardrawlizard Raw Newbie

    I am so surprised see people in this group that are so insensitive to other peoples’ lives and challenges. I am also sorry to hear that some think that their jobs are the hardest in the whole world, and that lower paid jobs are the easiest. They overlook the lack of opportunities, and the hard work that many do every day. I am not denying that a high paid jobs require hard work, but at least these people have health insurance coverage, great vacation time in some tropical island, retirement funds, access to luxury, while the low paid job workers (many times have to work two (or three) jobs) don’t have enough money for food, can’t spend time with their families, don’t have health coverage, and can’t go out for vacation. Sorry, but I don’t feel bad for you if the taxes are raised and you can’t buy those new shoes. I am not a religious person, but I care for other families that are hard workers as you are, but that are not getting the benefits.

  • marionvalleygirlmarionvalleygirl Raw Newbie

    I’m not into the worship of man. The t-shirts, sacrifical offerings, and mania is a bit to extreme in this election.

  • rawlizard – on what are you basing your observation? maybe i missed the posts, but i did not see anyone saying their job is the hardest in the world and that low paid jobs are the easiest. several of us were arguing against Chris’s position that only the manual labor jobs or the jobs without hope of advancement qualify as “hard work,” but i did not hear anyone denigrating those positions as a counter-point. i don’t have to be picking food out of a dumpster to have the right to the opinion that my taxes are quite high for what i get in return. if you lose a toe and someone else has no leg, it does not mean that you don’t get to say that your toe hurts.

  • thecavsmanthecavsman Raw Newbie

    I’m w/ you lizard. The more money people have, the more wasteful and materialistic their spending becomes…in general. And of course that is all of our rights. There are a lot of people doing a lot worse than me, and if I got taxed more to help people really going through some things, so be it. That is my mentality…as long as the money is going to the right place. But if my taxes are bailing out wall st and fighting wars, then I have a problem. Charity and “be a good person” as opposed to be taxed for the benefit all of society people are silly, in my opinion. There has to be a systematic safety net, not a safety net where the people with money choose who and when they want to help – this is unrealistic. I know people who have a whole lot and people that have very little, and for the most part people play the hand they are dealt.

    The questions is, what do we as a society believe in. In Europe, there is a social contract where you help the have-nots much more than we do here. Here, with no history of social contract, people just blame and point fingers and discuss why people are in their situation instead of just believing in a societal responsibility and letting itself work out. You don’t continuously debate firm societal beliefs, as in Europe there is little debate about their social contract (though there is xenophobic anti-immigrant talk). Americans have this “every man is an island approach” – and approach that is looking more and more flawed as we more through financial disaster. Americans should now realize that no man is an island and there is a fine line between having and not having – helping and needing help. People will realize sooner or later.

  • thecavsmanthecavsman Raw Newbie

    By the way, I am not pointing fingers at posters here for having a lack of compassion. I just like to talk about what lizard brought up lol…it hooks me

  • I feel like your picture of Europe is slightly more utopian than real. Europeans pay extremely high taxes and they receive a high level of services from the government. I know a lot of Europeans, and they do not voluntarily give more to charities than most Americans I know. They feel they do their part through their taxes. Thus, I’m not sure how you are defining the ‘social contract’ in practical terms. And I also think that several European countries are not truly xenophobic (some are), rather, they are trying to get a grip on the influx of Muslim immigrants who refuse to follow the tradition of assimilating into their new countries. i am with you in feeling that it’s fine for me to pay my fair share, and despite some philosophical problems i have with the progressive income tax, i support it, but i have a huge problem with how my country is spending my money – in fighting an unjustified war, in building shiny new ball parks and stadiums for private owners who profit from them, in fighting the misguided “war on drugs,” in supporting an unnecessarily large prison system because we lock up nonviolent drug offenders for long terms, in government waste, inefficiency, and pet projects, i could go on, but i hate being so negative on election day!

  • thecavsmanthecavsman Raw Newbie

    I didn’t meant to appear too utopian with my European view. But when push comes to shove, not only is the European system less likely to let people struggle as badly. About charity, that was exactly my point – they don’t need to give to charity as there is a structured taxation system supported by the people. The social contract is not done on a person to person basic but is part of their society. And even if the European governmental system collapses, it is hard to imagine that they’d be worse than America. It’s a no brainer when you wonder whether France or the US would be first to grant people the right to stay in their homes during a super financial disaster where foreclosures spike.

    As for Muslim refusal to assimilate to the culture. It sounds a lot like the garbage I hear in the US about how Hispanics are assimilating to the English language, ect. like the immigrants of old. Meanwhile, it has been proven again and again that they are actually learning the language faster than ANY group in the past, despite underfunded programs and long waiting lists for English classes. In Europe, the immigrant populations and their born in Europe families are not seen as European and there is extreme resistance to their presence. This is why conservative anti-muslim leaders, like Le Pen, are elected in the south of France (where Muslims immigrate) and more moderate/leftist leaders are elected in the North. I just can’t buy the assimilation argument.

    That being said, I think in general we agree that we don’t want our money being wasted, but if they are going to give it to people in need, no problem. I’m feeling that you are a Ron Paul supporter?

  • I’m not a big Ron Paul supporter, but that is largely because I never took him seriously as a candidate and didn’t do my homework beyond seeing that we are pretty far apart on our social issues. (and I don’t mean to be insulting to him by saying I never took him seriously – it’s more like there’s only so much time in the day and so many topics you can read up on, you know?) i also think his ideas of doing away with the federal reserve are just not going to work at this point. I think that a portion of the wave of Muslim people emigrating from their countries and settling in France, Denmark, Holland, etc., are acting in a much different matter than the Hispanics and Latinos in the U.S. From what I’ve seen, the Hispanics and Latinos really do try to become a part of the American fabric, engage in business with Americans, try to learn English, and try to hold on to their culture through family structure, foods, social customs, etc. This is not what Europe is experiencing with many of their Muslim immigrants. The Muslim immigrants keep an extremely closed culture and actually strike out against the existing culture of the country because they find it to be godless or against the laws of their religion. They infuse religion into everything they do, and they do not try to engage with the people of the country. It is seen by my European friends as much more of a take-over than as an integration. I am not a Le Pen fan – he’s a little too anti-everyone for my tastes, but a few of my closest friends live in or come from France, and the Muslim problem is very real and is not just discrimination on the French part. It’s also a tremendous problem in Denmark – where my boyfriend comes from.

  • rawlizardrawlizard Raw Newbie

    I lived in Europe (Germany) several years and also spent some time in England. When I lived in Germany, the goverment gave a ‘salary’ (basically money for clothes and food so people survive the Winter and don’t starve) to people that had lost their jobs or that had no resources to provide for themselves (language barrier, education, disability, etc.). However, many immigrants took advantage of this good will, and tried to live from what the goverment gaved them without working, which made people very upset (who wouldn’t be). In that respect I agree with DangnyTaggart that it is important to be alert and knowing where the goverment is spending our money. I also think that education and health are human rights. Spending money in other affairs, such as an endlees war, is not exactly what I have in mind for my tax increase, and that’s why I didn;t vote for McCain.

  • TomsMomTomsMom Raw Newbie

    Italian immigrants to this country did the same thing, DagnyTaggart. They clustered tightly together, many refused to teach their children English, and they hung on to traditions. No one married outside the family easily.

    I mean, not all did this, but a huge percentage did for a very long time, well into the 20th century. I think my father’s family assimilated fast and hard, but they were pretty distainful of the rest who refused to do so, and there were a lot!

    On my mother’s side, her orthodox Jewish family did the exact same thing. The kids were forbidden to play with other kids outside the neighborhood and if any married outside their religion, they were shunned for life. Period.

    I was just thinking this is not something only Muslim immigrants do:-)

  • JoyceHJoyceH Raw Newbie

    When I lived in Ireland for a year between 2005 and 2006, there were a lot of people from countries like Nigeria seeking asylum. Many were taking advantage of Ireland’s very generous social programs which provided these people with housing, cars and a monetary allowance. (before I moved there, I was at a music festival in nov 04 just after Bush got elected a 2nd term. I kept joking that I was going to seek political asylum in Ireland..hehehe..my Irish friends loved that!)

    rawlizard- I believe you were referring to that post by easycheetah claiming she has worked harder than most people and was insinuating that she fell into that $250K+ category. That post really rubbed me the wrong way as I just don’t like the ‘every man for himself’ attitude which is much more prevelant in the US than Europe.

  • JoyceHJoyceH Raw Newbie

    Oh TomsMom, I totally agree with you. My Vietnemese friends in San Diego live in communities where many of the older folks don’t speak English or really need to learn it. My brother-in-law’s Portugese mother in Rhode Island is elderly and never learned English b/c they live in a very close knit Portugese community. In Boston, my Irish friends stay very close together and hardly associate with Americans, especially in the Irish trad music scene. (I got snubbed several times in Boston and hardly ever in Ireland – go figure).

    That all being said, I’m not familiar with the Muslim populations in Europe. But I do agree that it’s just natural to flock with people of your own race, religion, and/or culture.

  • TomsMomTomsMom Raw Newbie

    The scariest is when you have third-generation children unable to speak their country’s language. I love it when kids are raised to be bilingual, but keeping them uneducated and isolated and unable to communicate is just sick.

    I know you weren’t talking to me, but I agree with you on the “every man for himself” attitude. It’s a very selfish attitude that too many Americans have. We have an unusual culture in that we have an absolute distain for the elderly, the ill and disadvantaged, if not an out-right hatred. I see those sorts as being useless to any society.

  • rawlizardrawlizard Raw Newbie

    Yes JoyceH. Cheeta’s post also rubed me wrong because I feel that it is somewhat disrespectful not to acknowledge the hard work that many low paid people do every day.

  • troublesjustabubbletroublesjustabubble Raw Newbie

    Tomsmom-I totally agree that’s it’s crazy when they isolate so much that they don’t allow their children to take advantage of education and the perks of being bilingual.

    However, even though I definitely notice a certain ‘overlooking’ of the elderly and ill and disadvantaged I have to say that from what I see it’s not yet to disdain. It’s sad that we are even to the point of acting ignorant to the fact they’re out there and in need and I hope I don’t see the day when the elderly are outright disrespected by society. In fact, this has inspired me to be more caring! I have some elderly neighbors that could use a little love.

  • My sincere apologies if I came across as disrespectful in any way. Coming from a “disadvantaged” and low paid for generations family that is/was not my intent, nor my heart.


  • LOL – sorry TomsMom – I apologize again – I just can’t seem to say the right thing to you ;0) but you always make me think and rethink where I stand on things. I really appreciate that about you and JoyceH too!

  • schmoopeeschmoopee Raw Newbie

    Let’s not forget that people “sacrificed” and “donated” their votes to a third party (Nader) in 2000 and Al Gore lost the election by 537 votes in Florida. (Nader received 97,421 votes in Florida—In fact, all seven of the other third-party candidates on the ballot in Florida each received more than 537 votes)

    SO Guess what?! Bush won, then he lied and got us into a war which caused the DEATH of thousands of Americans and god knows how many Iraqis.

    There are consequences to your actions.

  • rawlizardrawlizard Raw Newbie

    EasyCheeta, no worries, I’m glad to hear that you are not like that. I am a believer that is in the best interest of humankind to help each other and try to make our society a better place to leave, for the low paid and the 200K+ paid. :)

  • I voted for Nader in Florida in 2000 (ducks head). I’ve never gotten over it. I had just seen him speak at Columbia and I was inspired – what can I say?

    I agree, Shmoopee, that people voting third party can’t ignore the actual effect of their bote, but I do still think it is important for people to feel free to vote for the one candidate who inspires them and also to make the statement that the two party system is not working.

  • rawlizard I passionately believe we all need to help each other and make our world a better place to live for everyone regardless of income. We agree! Yay! I think our disagreement really comes down to HOW to do that in the best way for everyone regardless of income or anything else for that matter, race, sex, religion, etc.

  • Schmoopee- lol. It’s good to be passionate! I disagree vehemently though that third party voters hurt Gore AND that third party voters hurt our country now or then, for two reasons.

    First off, GWB’s corrupted and supposed “win” in FL was a corrupt scam on all Americans! Please do your self a favor and research the actual facts about the 2000 FL vote -

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0310/S00211.htm , and

    http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/florida_e… – just a couple of MANY sites with info if you Google – and how easy it is to hack into the Diebold machines and that it was.

    Bush Jr’s win was not due to people voting third party and taking the votes away from Gore. It was rigged and they would have had him “win” despite the actual number of people voting third party or not. But voting for third party candidates became a great scapegoat and place to point fingers for the blame. Smokescreens work wonderfully well when trying to divert people’s attention away from the truth. THEN Bush, after being illegally and underhandledly “elected” chose to LIE, CHEAT, take us into a war based on lies killing our children, fathers, mothers, sisters, and brothers, and continue to scam the American people- the world no less!

    Secondly, voting for third party candidates, ultimately, is a good thing, a great thing in fact. If people were to just give in and accept only voting for one of two parties, the acceptance of voting fo the lesser of two evils consistently, the third parties would disappear. ... Oh wait… Looks like that’s all already the case!... Third parties disappear and we have no real options then, no real change, no real CHOICE, no real democracy. If enough people continue to speak up for their altenative choices in non-corporate backed candidates, at least the dream of real democracy and real choice stays viable, even if small.

    And lastly, voting your conscience is the whole idea behind having the right and opportunity to vote. Democracy was not designed to have to choose between the lesser of evils for oursleves on a consistent basis. It was designed for all people to have a voice, equal rights, and fair treatment.

    • Please understand, I am not knocking those who chose to vote for a candidate because of fear of the other “getting” their vote. I do completely understand it and seriously considered that option myself. I commend anyone who got out and voted. I just am not attacking or blaming those who choose to vote third party because that candidate best represents their voice.

    Blame the corrupt individuals who commit the crimes, not the individuals who remain true to their conscience. Voting your conscince is NEVER wrong. People who choose to act corruptly against others are ALWAYS wrong. That is the real place of the blame- on those individuals!

  • schmoopeeschmoopee Raw Newbie

    Nadar split the vote and that is a fact. Think whatever you need to Aspire. Election fraud was a factor as well (don’t need your links—I don’t live under a rock).

    Hey, did you do anything to actually go out and canvas for any third parties? I mean since you care so much about it.

  • Easy there Schmoopee. Why all the hate? ‘Course I can think whatever I want. So can you. I don’t begrudge you for your opinion, I simply spoke up for mine. You’re attacking people for voting third party when that is their absolute right, while it’s others’ choice and right to vote for whomever they feel is right, yet no one attacked you. (If it appeared that way, my apologies.)

    And you bet I did canvas and contribute! But what if I hadn’t?? Are you trying to prove you are somehow a better person? I bet you are… in some ways… and I bet you aren’t in some ways. Big deal. I’m not perfect… are you? I surely haven’t tried to imply to those who speak their opinion that they aren’t “good enough” to speak up if they didn’t canvas for their candidate. What exactly is your point???

  • schmoopeeschmoopee Raw Newbie

    give me a break. no hate, just facts. if anyone’s acting superior its you. You actually think you need to school someone in the election fraud that took place in Florida in 2000. Puhleeeze.

    BOTH are true. there was fraud and Nadar split the votes costing gore the election. If 2% of the people who voted for Nader had voted for Gore it could very well have ended differently. That’s my opinion. I didn’t call you out.

  • Ahhh, I see. Sorry then if I came across that way. I happen to work with a large group of men who deny there is any way that there was any actual fraud that did take place, who refuse to even research anything about it and when presented with evidence will eaither not look at it, or say it is not real. So I guess I am a bit used to being around people who are very used to only getting their news from the mainstream media channels. My apologies for coming off that way, but I do not think I am superior. Just passionate, too. :)

Sign In or Register to comment.