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some free 80/10/10 info....i'm leaving

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  • actually chris, you missed the point…..a few of them

    1) this thread was just to pass info on to those that were interested, not to get bogged down in another argument with those that WEREN’T interested…it is for people here to make their own minds up, not for discussions of controversy etc….there is no denial here…in just the same way as controversy exists in the raw food movement in general, so it does for 811….there are those who look through the controversy to make their own judgement6s

    2)there is nothing dogmatic about 811….the book mainly focuses on nutrritional information…..doug even states that the ratio would provide health benefits even if used in a cooked food diet…..what you’ve mainly failed to realise through all your research/discussions/arguments is that 811 is just plain and simple 100%raw…you just gotta eat a little more food and a little less fat…..a dead food list is unnecessary because you just eat from the produce section

    3)those that begin to notice when they’ve overdone the fats are 811’rs who after a while have become more sensitive, not raw fooders who still eat 20% dead foods….

    4)there seem to be quite a few 811’rs that do this….you just won’t see them here

  • I want to address a few of the points that chris raised.

    I don’t understand what you mean by saying that mosyt 811ers haven’t given plain old raw a try. What is 811 if not “plain old raw”? You go on to list a bunch of processed foods that are not raw – agave, cacao, oils, miso, nama shoyu, tahini, wild rice, etc – but these things don’t feature in 811. 80/10/10 focuses on whole, fresh, ripe, raw fruits and vegetables, with occasional avocado / nuts & seeds. How is this so wildly different from the way that you eat?

    80/10/10 doesn’t require a website to calculate ratios or food intake. Nutridiary and other sites like it are suggested as tools for feedback purposes during the learning stages. Many people stumble with 80/10/10 in the early stages simply from not eating enough food – most people coming to 80/10/10 are coming from diets with calorie-dense foods and are not used to the volume of food required. It was also interesting for me to get a realistic picture of my old diet before moving to 80/10/10. The beauty of 811 is that if you eat a diet of predominately raw fruits and vegetables you automatically eat a rat a ratio of around 90/5/5. If you add in an avocado or some seeds/nuts that will come closer to 80/10/10. So really, no website is needed but it’s a useful tool in the beginnning. By the way, the 80/10/10 ratio is an average over a period of weeks or months, so it’s ok to go for weeks without eating avocado and then eat three in a day – that’ll still fall within 80/10/10.

    It’s not true that the people who love 80/10/10 are all “very, very physically active”. I have met 811ers of a variety of ages and activity levels. It’s true that 80/10/10 is very supportive of physical activity. And most of the 811ers I’ve spoken to explain how their activity level increased after moving to 80/10/10. What’s so terrible about physical activity anyway? All the health experts recommend it. But physical activity is not a requirement of healthy eating.

    80/10/10 is just a ratio of carbs, protein and fat. It’s a low-fat, vegan diet just like those recommended by respected professionals like John McDougall, Dean Ornish, Nathan Pritikin, T. Colin Campbell, Ruth Heidrich, William Harris, Michael Klaper, Michael Greger, Joel Fuhrman, Caldwell Esselstyn, and Alan Goldhamer. However, 80/10/10 is raw. It is ‘plain and simple’ at its very core.

    I would love it if you could expand on your point about the jury being out in terms of the science.

    Also, what do you mean about today’s bananas not being natural?

    Chris, I’ve taken you up on your challenge of being 100% raw for 3 months. Well I’ve been 100% raw for 12 months, and it’s been entirely within the 80/10/10 program. I eat a diet of predominately fresh, raw fruits and vegetables. How can I get any more raw than that? Really, I don’t believe we are so different. If you still think otherwise, I’d love to hear your views.

  • chriscarltonchriscarlton Raw Newbie

    Wow, I really hate this. Having to explain/defend my posts. If this thread is just about making information available, then what is wrong with my posts.

    I deleted the end of my previous post, where I promised not to post on this thread again. I wanted to answer the confusion over what I said.

    I’ve never said Fat is Good, 811 is bad. I only was making the point that most people I know that have fully detoxed naturally gravitate towards a more 811 diet anyway.

    I think when 811 or 100% is pushed on forums without mentioning transition time, that it puts a lot of undue pressure on Newbies. I only wanted to put out there on this thread that the transition can be natural and effortless.

    I didn’t say 811 is not 100%. I was talking about 811 converts who were never actually 100% themselves, before condemning plain old raw and switching to 811.

    You don’t have to believe in The Garden of Eden to understand my reference to early man. Why make this an argument point?

    Not only attack posts were deleted. Posts reporting bad personal results were deleted as well. I didn’t say what the cause of the results were, but surely if it was user error, it would have been more helpful to explain their mistakes, than to delete their posts.

    I know what a ripe Banana is for God’s sake.

    I eat 811 much of the time, I just don’t expect the people I am coaching to do so.

    MOTH: I am glad that your body is working for you the same way mine does. Isn’t it wonderful? I am also glad that you are not dogmatic about it. Stress is bad for our health as well.

    el-bo: re: your #3 above. This is exactly the point I wanted to make. Those who are still eating cooked food need to go raw and detox fully first, before blaming their bad feelings on an avocado. If this is never mentioned then you’ll end up with 80%-881 / 20% cooked. Do you think this is what Doug intended?

    As far as the Jury being out on the science. The main point of contention is the amount of greens we should eat.

    Bananas are nothing like their forefathers. They are one of the most hybridized foods we have today. Bananas are also gassed to ripen them, so that can be picked really early while they are very hard to reduce shipping damage. This is why if you place bananas near other foods it will ripen them. This is caused by the gas escaping.

    I only wanted to releave the pressure that ‘Very Pro 811’ threads can place on people. Stress is worse than avocados. Personally I don’t have a number in mind that I think is perfect and 811 may be it.

    What I do firmly believe is that “Cooked Food is Poison!”. This was Lab proven more than 50 years ago. I believe eliminating cooked food is first, limiting fats is second. But this is only my opinion an it’s no surprise that it is not welcome on yet another 811 thread.

  • i’m glad, chris, that you deleted the last part of your post

    from what i can gather, you’re one of the good guys, and an inspiration to me before i’d even heard of this forum…your cooked to raw story is a testimony that proves without doubt the efficacy of adopting a raw lifestyle

    i’m sure that were we to debate this face to face that the tone would be far less aggressive….

  • aaah…there you are…knew you couldn’t resist

    nothing is wrong with you making your information available…but maybe start a thread ‘some 811 controvery’.....and in exactly the spirit as i intended…let folks find out for themselves

    that most people naturally gravitate towards 811, is quite an important point…one which needs no further elaboration

    as concerns 811 being pushed on forums without mentioning transition time..well that’s just ‘plain’ incorrect….if you go to the vegsource forum…....post after post after post after post when people are initially having problems, other more experienced 811’rs will tell them that it takes time to transition….there is no pressure….doug even suggests that if you are having problems transitioning to raw, then try to use the ratio with cooked…..lower your fat and protein and increase carbs…...unless you have an atkins affiliation, i’m sure most of us would agree that if you are gonna be cooked, that making the above simple changes would result in greater health….can you get any more ‘UN’- dogmatic

    i’m not condemning plain old raw…i, like you, understand that too much fat isn’t good for us….and there is NO ‘switch’ to 811…it’s just an extension , and slight refinement (bad choice of word) of what you’re already doing

    re: the garden of eden…that was a joke…it was you who introduced it as an argument point, in defense of your wish (or lack of curiosity) to not have to count calories, arguing that adam and eve didn’t have broadband (yeah in them days it was just dial-up)...well o.k…but there is far more of interest when using nutridiary than just calorie consumption….i find it very interesting to see what the foods i eat contain…maybe i’m just a bit of a nerd, that way….fine that you don’t want or need to know

    in terms of deleted posts…well, ok…...i don’t know the full history of these…i am interested…believe me, i wanna know all about the bad as well as the good….i’m far too cynical to believe everything i read and would be almost skeptical if all seemed too good….knowing about those who have had problems is very important, but unfortunately i can’t comment on the removal of the posts…i wasn’t there at the time…..you are correct, though…problems should be worked through…again, i’m not aware of the specifics….....

    maybe vegsource should entertain a more liberal approach..maybe it does now…all seems good, over there….maybe the posts were so radically against the principals of the forum that they were deleted….i wonder how long it would take to be kicked off alissa’s forum if you had problems and claimed that her high fat recipes were the cause

    the fact that dr.d is not a real doctor (whatever you mean by that) means absolutely nothing….all i know is, after reading and hearing what he says, he seems to make a crapload of sense…if i find it not to be true, then so be it….qualifications mean very little, here….that he has spent so much time researching, coaching and walking his talk is what resonates with me….i don’t care if he just came outta school…if what he says makes sense and proves to be some benefit, then thats worth more than any ‘real’ doctor i ever saw in my life….bad advice from someone who is clearly unhealthy, peddling legal poisons dependant on which companies they recieve commission…..doctor schmoctor !!

    ok, so you know what a ripe banana is…calm down….many people don’t, though…and those same people find that they have problems consuming them….it was just a thought

    re: your reply to MOTH…ther’s that word dogma again…you are both pretty much following 811, naturally…that’s all ther e is to it….no dogma

    about the amount of greens to eat…well i can only imagine you advocate eating LESS greens than doug graham, as to eat more ould start bordering on the ridiculous….what is the scientific argument for eating less greens ???

    anyway…you must not feel you have to defend your views….i can’t see where you’re being attacked….we’re just debating

  • here’s a link to a doug graham video

    it’s the 1st of 4 parts….in total, he talks for 1hr 40 mins and doesn’t mention 811 once…..he just talks about raw veganism…...811 is just ‘plain’ old raw veganism…just a bit more food and less fat

    and if you only watch the last (19 minute) segment you will see just how UN-dogmatic he is….unless you are pro-SAD, in which case you may try to find fault

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5198740…

  • tried to stay away while fasting…just couldn’t resist a bit of lively discussion

    as far as the fast…so far , so good…nearly 4 in the afternoon and no significant hunger problems…..still early in the game…..

  • @chris

    I’m sorry this descended into argument. I can see we agree on many more points that we disagree on. But those points of disagreement are interesting to me. I like to challenge my beliefs now and then, and be open to other points of view. It is funny how sometimes the small differences can be more divisive and overshadow similarities. It’s not my intention, in life or in this forum, to expect other people to accept my beliefs, but I’m happy to share my thoughts and opinions wherever they’re welcome.

    When I read your first post in this thread, I thought that you were making sweeping statements about 811ers and 811-related threads and were drawing a “them-and-us” distinction between people who are 100% raw and people who are not. It seemed to me that you were saying that plain old raw “makes sense”, but 80/10/10 did not. Your point about transition time was lost on me until you pointed it out and I re-read your post – I thought it was a point about Dr Graham’s credentials. But I realise those feelings were rooted in my reaction to your post, and not necessarily the message you were trying to convey.

    That said, I hope we can move forward and you wouldn’t mind answering a few questions I have:

    You’ve said that the amount of greens we should eat is in contention. I have not heard this before, can you elaborate? Are you suggesting the recommendations are too high or too low?

    I’m also not sure what your point is about bananas being hybridised. I’ve seen this discussed before, but don’t understand how it makes bananas unfit for consumption? Aren’t all fruits and vegetables available today hybrids?

    Finally, just want to clarify a few things that may have become muddied in the minds of people following this thread

    • The data behind nutridiary.com comes from the USDA (United States Department of Agriculture).
    • Dr Graham is a doctor of chiropractic, and has a broad and quite detailed knowledge of biology, chemistry, physiology, anatomy. He does not diagnose or prescribe, and will often call upon qualified medical professionals for their advice when needed.
    • Dr Graham has been on the 80/10/10 program for over 20 years, even if it wasn’t called that until very recently. It’s true that he transitioned for a few years until he hit on the program that he now promotes. It’s interesting to watch his videos and listen to his audios that are over 20 years old and see him promoting the same message that he does now.
    • I can’t speak for the past, but the vegsource forums today are open and inclusive. You will often see posts from people who are struggling or looking for support. Sometimes someone will come along and say how we should all be eating cooked food, or meat. Sometimes emotions run wild – such is the nature of online communities. But posts are rarely deleted these days – I have only seen them deleted where they broke house rules.
    • Re: Transition – Dr Graham will often repeat the phrase “The destination is more important than the speed”. In other words, he’s suggesting a destination, and he works with people in their transition. It’s not important to get there today or tomorrow, as long as you’re heading in the right direction. The shortest path between two points is a straight line. And the easiest transition is a quick one. I tried “transitioning” off cigarettes, coffee and other substances several times, but it never worked for me until I “quit”. However, some people might not favour a quick transition, and that’s ok.
  • Bananna1333Bananna1333 Raw Newbie

    My eyes are starting to glaze over reading all this…most of the misconceptions around it would be cleared up if people would just read the book first, lol.

    Like bananas, if they give you a hard time, then Don’t eat them. Likewise if tomatoes do, then Don’t eat those. Or that you can go weeks and weeks with no overt fats and then eat three avocadoes and feel fine. That’s allowed on 811 too. It’s an average fat intake. Or that you have to count calories everyday. No you don’t! You might want to if you’re like Harley and a professional athlete…it’s only a recommendations for the first couple of days so you get the idea of what 811 actually looks like. ...all of which the book makes clear.

    http://www.stevepavlina.com did it for a month as a test, and noticed a difference from when he did other raw diets.

    ...and isn’t it kind of hypocritical to say how annoying and dogmatic 811 is and that what works for some won’t for others when SAD people will say the same things to you.

    phew ok, anyways, thanks el-bo for the links I’ve really enjoyed reading through Harley’s threads and I’ve been finding it a total breeze ever since.

    So, thanks! I was really struggling with raw before, not having the right blender, nor dehydrator and special ingredients. This is much, much more sane :)

  • haha…i saw your post over there (down-under) this morning…wondered who it might be…and, there you are

    glad you liked the links….that harley is just ‘something else’....he inspires me, hugely…..die-hard raw foodist and hardcore 811 enthusiast…..so many people take issue with his style…i think it’s just funny

    well anyways…good luck…thanks for responding

    i’ve just broken my water fast….started to have a pretty hard time over the last couple of hours….i finished a master cleanse a couple of weeks ago, i didn’t think this would hit so hard….anyways, i just had my 1st glass of o.j (liquid sunshine)...i’m gonna continue with this…...it’s a bit more supportive than water and i need something more sustainable…..i have to rid myself of the ‘quick fix’ mentality

    peace to all

  • chilovechilove Raw Newbie

    Hi there,

    Thanks so much for posting all the great information!

    I just wanted to add my 2 cents in on the 80/10/10 diet and the high fruit/low fat lifestyle.

    I have been eating this way for about three years and LOVE IT!!! I feel much better the simpler I eat. I have much more energy and enthusiasm for life when I eat simply and low fat and eating a high fruit diet keeps me feeling full and satisfied.

    That being said, I think that it is important for new raw foodists to not try to restrict their diet too much the first couple of years that they are raw because it can lead to feelings of deprivation with can lead to cravings and bingeing.

    I feel that refining and improving ones diet towards a more simple, low fat approach should happen naturally as the person feels emotionally and physically ready for it.

    There is no need to rush or be dogmatic about being raw (unless you are facing a serious illness or chronic medical condition).

    Raw is all about abundance and beauty and simplicity! No stress!! :-)

    Blessings,

    Audrey www.rawhealing.com

  • Chris – Wow! You are awesome! Thanks for responding on this topic even though the acid can become kind of thick! I am learning from this, and I am feeling a kindred with you. Thanks for being strong to help those who are weak! I am learning to eat the herbs that God has so liberally strewn in my path! Maybe someday I will find the strength and calm that you have found! Until then, I am still transitioning!

  • The ratio of 80/10/10 does make sense to me! Especially since most of the sustainable raw food choices fall into these guide lines, but I must agree that there really should be a transition period. From the lecture that I listened to this morning, I got the feeling that the 811 people to not hold with transitioning. What I have found out is that a transition period can be very self educational to a person coming from a SAD background. My husband and I were discussing his background and we realize that he was raised on an almost exclusively cooked diet!

    Anyway, I want to thank you, el-bo for the info. I feel like I am learning so much, and just as Chris has said, this 80/10/10 diet does make a lot of sense in a practical way.

  • angie207angie207 Raw Newbie

    Yes, chriscarlton – thanks for your posts :)

  • WinonaWinona Raw Newbie

    audrey – thanks for the post! i’ve only been eating raw food for 3 months, and i COULDNT stay raw without my wonderful nuts and seeds and avocados. I love how you emphasize that new raw foodists shouldn’t try to restrict their diet too much during the first couple of years. This is so important, as so many folks on goneraw are very new to raw foods.

    i agree wholeheartedly with the way Chris explains things. Chris – don’t stop posting! You have very good information and you are what caused me to try to eat 100% raw by avoiding items on the deadfoodlist. I’m not there yet, but I hope to eat all raw one day. I completely agree with the idea that my first goal should be to eat all raw food before attempting 8-1-1.

    el-bo – thanks for the 8-1-1 information. I think a lot of the folks new to raw, myself included, are simply not ready to consider this type of diet. I think it will come naturally once we’ve been raw for longer.

    In summary, I think it’s best for new raw foodists to eat what they want (in moderation) as long as it’s truly raw. It’s enough of a struggle for most of us to avoid eating cooked food… we don’t need to worry about the picky details or restricting oil etc etc. That’s stressful! Lets just enjoy the bounty and abundance of selecting quality organic produce and thoroughly enjoy it.

  • MOTHMOTH Raw Newbie

    Hey guys! I tallied up what I ate yesterday, and it came to 1600 calories! Wow! I thought I was eating a lot, so I thought it would be more then that.

    Can anyone recommend how many calories I should be getting in a day? I do moderate exercise everyday, at least 4 miles on my bike, plus weight lifting, crunches and jump roping, with the occasional jog. I have found that my need to MOVE around really increases with the low fat! Wow, I have a TON of energy since I’ve started eating this way!

    I don’t feel depleted at all, because I just eat whenever I feel like it, and to fullness and satisfaction, but was just wondering about the daily calories thing.

    Should I be getting closer to 2000?

  • Bananna1333Bananna1333 Raw Newbie

    Hey Moth…have you read Harley’s threads yet? He goes into that quite a bit as he’s seriously athletic. I think you should absolutely be eating more since 1600 is pretty close to just maintaining yourself. It’s important to eat adequately otherwise you risk relapsing due to cravings…due to not eating enough. If you could ballpark figure out how much you’re burning. But like you also said, eat till your satisfied, I think your appetite will be in porportion to your expenditure for the most part. That ‘intuitive eating’ thing. Just remember that if your having to white-knuckle it, you’re probably not eating enough.

    I too agree with transitioning, I don’t think the book says you can’t transition. It does stress though that you shouldn’t quit because it’s not working for you because you likely undereating or not exercising enough, or getting enough sleep or sunlight, or too much stress. It actually includes a bunch of things, besides just food.

    el-bo, ya I am just starting to post on these boards, I was finding the other board a little too restrictive. Like we weren’t allowed to talk about 811 ….against her business and all, lol. Good luck with the juicing and stuff, I don’t seem to do well with water fasts either! I agree, his style is kind of hilarious and I love it if he gets a rise out of people….which they never seem to do out of him. Maybe he’ll be annoyed with my dread lock comment, lol.

  • MOTH…try here…http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/

    this’ll help you calculate your bmr (basal metabolic rate) and will give you a rough indication of the calories needed to support you, AT REST

    1600 calories probably isn’t far off….maybe another few bananas and a couple of dates…..you will be eating a lot, but over time, you should get used to it…and as you feel the need to step up the activity, your appetite will increase to accomodate

    BANANNA…way to go on the kids….haha…that’s loads….

    to clarify the position on transition for the purposes of this thread….dr.d ABSOLUTELY agrees with transition…how could he not….his own was a long, and often failing, journey….he just hopes that you’ll shortcut using his experiences

    it was me who stated that i believe transition is only necessary to deal with psychological attatchment to cook food….and it is a personal choice for me to jump straight in…..yes, i fall…but i learn more each time….i’ve learnt for me that transition just prolongs what are for me, some serious addiction/comfort issues….i can NO more transition successfully than i could give up smoking a few years ago by ‘cutting down’

    anyways, i really dig your use of ‘white-knuckle’...that’s how i was during my last stint of 811…just about making it to my next meal without cracking….i now know that for me the key will be in eating more frequently ( to keep the knuckles red)...i guess, in a way, this is like a transition…it is not optimum to eat this way, because we need to allow our bodies a break from digestion….but it will allow me to stick to it…..we’ll see

  • angie207angie207 Raw Newbie

    I wanted to comment to whomever said that you can’t detox too fast. The reason a lot of fruitarians & other raw foodies have problems with their teeth after a while is that eating a lot of fruit causes the body to cleanse quickly, dumping acids into the mouth, which break down tooth enamel. (read in “Hooked on Raw” by Rhio) Also, people with weak organs/systems often cannot handle the fast detox that happens when going from SAD to 100% raw overnight, while those with stronger bodies & systems do very well just “jumping right in.”

  • Bananna1333Bananna1333 Raw Newbie

    el-bo, thanks, it is loads….loads of work and loads of fun, wouldn’t have it any other way.

    As for your transitioning thing, just keep trying, it doesn’t matter if you fail, like you said, you learn from failing. Plus you learn about yourself

    I just remember that successfull people (7 secrets or something) They Always keep trying. My definition of failing at something is to quit trying or to quit growing and learning about it.

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