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China Study and raw Vegetarians

Ok, so I bought the China Study yesterday, and I haven’t yet perused much except the graphs showing the correlations between animal proteins and cancers. It’s pretty interesting, but here’s my question:

I am a 99% raw vegetarian. (The other 1% is occasional coffee or glass of wine) ALL of my food is raw, but I am not vegan, as I do enjoy raw, unfiltered honey and raw, unpasteurized milk and cheese.

I wonder if these things contribute a large percentage of my dietary protein. I have a tablespoon or less of honey per day on average, and probably an ounce or two of cheese a day on average. I rarely drink milk, but sometimes in a smoothie.

I’m concerned that I might be hurting myself quite a bit, but I don’t feel any negative effects. I really enjoy having cheese on a salad and honey in my tea.

If I switched to vegan cheese, it wouldn’t be raw. What’s a girl to do?



  • lzhptlzhpt Raw Newbie

    I don’t eat raw goat cheese every day, but when I want it, i have it. There’s no raw cheese in the world that satisfys that craving for me. i usually have it about once a month. I don’t worry about it.

  • springleafspringleaf Raw Newbie

    I think you sound like you have a wonderfully good diet. I have tried vegan chees and it tasted so foul I threw it out for the seagulls and even they didn’t eat it. (I have seen seagulls eat human vomit). If it is so bad that even a gull doesn’t recognise it as food I wouldn’t eat it! A small amount of organic, milk, honey and cheese will do you very little harm and will provide a good natural source of B12. You sound like you diet is so good that you would feel any negative effects if there were any for you. I say stay as you are!

  • WW- Not all raw diets are healthy. Since you don’t say much about the kinds of foods you are eating besides raw dairy, it’s impossible to know whether you’re following a healthy diet or not. Judging by the fact that you’re still drinking coffee and wine, however, I’d say raw dairy is the least of your problems. These are far more harmful than raw dairy. The effects that you feel when you consume them are the efforts of the body to deal with them. They are outright poisons, through and through; they offer nothing of value to the body. Raw dairy, on the other hand, while also containing some unsuitable and unusable constituents, does contain some nutrients that can be used by the body. Raw dairy is far healthier than soy products like the fake cheeses & meats. These are all cooked and re-cooked, and are made from inappropriate foods that can’t even be eaten raw (like soybeans). Imo, before you look at getting raw dairy out of your diet, you need to work on 86ing the coffee and wine completely and look at the other aspects of your diet that could be improved. Raw dairy foods can be used in moderation as transition foods, especially for people who haven’t been vegan before going raw. Raw, salt-free(very important) dairy foods are roughly as digestible and usable as nuts or steamed veggies. What these foods all have in common is that although they are not optimal and do create some waste in the body, they represent huge improvements over the foods that are typically eaten in their place. Best wishes, Nora www.RawSchool.com

  • springleafspringleaf Raw Newbie

    Have a feeling that this is going to cause a backlash, but here goes..

    Loads of studies have shown that alcohol in small quantities (1 unit per day for women – sorry blokes can’t remember exactly for you but think it is 2 or 3?) and no binges, has a benificial effect on health with a lower rate of death than for non-drinkers. However, the consensus is that if you can’t stay at this level then none is best. Also red wine has been shown to contain high levels of benifical phytochemicals, the highest levels are found in most french wines due to the climate and soil type of france. Last point, good quality, organic wine is raw and vegan! So go ahead and enjoy!

  • WinonaWinona Raw Newbie

    That may be the case, rawnora, but I’m of the opinion that any raw diet is better than a cooked diet. I drink raw wine, I eat fruits and vegetables and greens and nuts in whatever quantities I want. There are an infinite number of opinions, Wailingwoman – some folks will tell you don’t EVER eat spices, or onions, or wine, or cheese, etc etc etc until they’re blue in the face! Some of us take a more moderate approach to raw food.

    Ya know what I say? You can get opinions, but don’t take anyone too seriously. Listen to your body, your own intuition.

    I agree, springleaf, enjoy your wine! In moderation, I certainly enjoy my raw hard cider, blueberry wines, mmm.

  • springleafspringleaf Raw Newbie

    Good for you Winona! I 100% agree with you post. I likes a cider myself too ;-)

  • The China Study specificallly mentions dairy (caseins consumption) consumption as being bad for you. See the study of rats. I stopped consuming milk and dairy products after reading the book. Soon after that I quit consuming diet sodas. A year after that I stopped consuming the 4 packets of aspartame I was using a day in my coffees.

    I was a vegetarian who consumed a lot of dairy and diet sodas. I was not overeating, but I had a large amount of cellulite, stored toxins. The cellulite is 70% gone now. It should be mostly gone by next summer.

  • greenghostgreenghost Raw Newbie

    rawnora ~ ugh!
    “judging by the fact that you’re still drinking coffee and wine, I’d say raw dairy is the least of your problems”
    What a way to word things. You make it sound like wailingwoman is getting drunk on her a$$ every night.
    Life is about balance and if she is happy having a small glass of wine or a pint of good beer now and then (ww even said it was “occasionally”)- why give her a lecture?!?

  • Thanks, everyone for your views. I love a lively discussion! ;)

    As to my diet, a typical day starts with fresh mellon or grapefruit, water and/or a smoothie (banana, spirulina, raw apple juice, spinach).

    I snack on fruit or dried carrot, sweet potato, apple or pinapple chips from the dehydrator.

    Lunch is a salad – spinach, corn, tomato, avocado, cukes, etc

    Dinner is just like lunch, but add marinated mushrooms and/or cheese. And probably a glass of wine.

    I’ve only been eating this way for a month, but I’m pretty cleaned out. I ate a decadent dessert at a restaurant on Tuesday to celebrate my husband’s new job, and I’ve been nauseated for the last 2 days from the sugar!

    I think the biggest issue I’m having is cheese. I do eat it pretty much every day, and if the China Study is right, then I’m probably not out of the running for cancer. I don’t feel ready to give it up yet, though.

    As for the coffee – I think I’ll be able to cut it back to once or twice a week. I drink decaf, so I’ve already done my withdrawal – it’s more an issue of Maine cold weather and the need for warm tasty beverages. Wine…hmmmm…it’s raw, it’s vegan, it’s poison…we’ll see.

  • ajchanterajchanter Raw Newbie

    WailingWoman, im no expert, but i think that the China Study is based on pasterised, non-orgaic dairy and such. Although i don’t eat raw dairy myself, i have heard that there are some benifets of eating raw goeats cheese, for exemple. either way, raw dairy is soooooooooo much better for you than the norm. :)

  • SuperfoodSuperfood Raw Newbie

    I do not think cow milk or goat milk products, raw or not, are healthy for a human body, but I just wanted to say that there are raw commerical vegan cheeses, such as Dr. Cow, and you can also make your own easily!

  • I do believe Campbell said (within the rat study) that a diet of 5% or less of animal protein (specifically, casein from cow’s milk) kept the cancer from initiating or promoting, depending on the stage they were in at the start. Once they began to up the animal protein to between 10% and 20%, the cancer began to grow. They brought it back down to 5% and the cancer died away into a dormant state again.

    I have not been able to eliminate cheese from my diet, but I am not eating it often and I eat the raw goat’s milk cheeses. I also still have 1 cup of coffee at some point in the day, which I would like to give up…ah, will power!! And I have an occasional glass of wine as well.

    I agree with Superfood in that I do not believe milk from another species is beneficial to humans, but I do still eat it! UGH! I am working on eliminating it. Kind of gross when I think about drinking…say, cats milk….or rat’s milk. Anyone see that Simpsons? “You promised me dog or better!” haha

  • troublesjustabubbletroublesjustabubble Raw Newbie

    kristin-tehehehe, gotta love the Simpsons.

  • WinonaWinona Raw Newbie

    haha kirsten, cats milk. I see milk the same way – it’s totally gross to me. If you get milk, at least get it from cows who are grass fed. I study animal health and nutrition, and purchasing products from factory farming should be avoided by everyone on goneraw. Really folks, seriously, do not buy things that were factory farmed. Other than that, good eating!

  • beate64beate64 Raw Newbie

    In regards of coffee… it might not be an alternative for the hard core coffee drinker… but I do really like it, actually I love my ‘Bambu’ grain coffee, all natural. It’s a Swiss product and made from rye, chicory, barley, malted barley, figs and acorns. It tastes great and I love it ‘black’ or with almond milk :)) makes for a good warm up drink in the morning or whenever… speaking of… I might just have one after I got the groceries out of the way… Oh, I buy it at the health food store.

  • megantheveganmeganthevegan Raw Newbie

    Personally I appreciated rawnora’s information…I don’t feel like she was trying to call WW a drunk or saying that she drinks often. I think she was weighing the circumstances by the information that WW gave.

  • RawKidChefRawKidChef Raw Newbie

    The only non-raw things I eat are coffee, milk, and chicken broth. I’d say I’m 97% raw. I know, I’m not vegan, but isn’t it better than what most people do? I don’t see the harm in drinking a little bit of coffee, even with a little bit of milk.

    I agree about the wine. It’s raw vegan, but it’s total poison even though many people exploit its rawness.

    Check out Zoe’s website:


    All dairy/meat products are just as unhealthy as any cooked food. And I must say cheese is a killer, even when raw.

    There’s a local drop-off location for raw, organic, grass-fed dairy products, even ice cream. I would buy quarts of this decadent raw cream (far superior to pasteurized) that was so good I couldn’t stop eating it. They even sold raw ice cream made with raw cream. It was probably the best thing I ever tasted, but it was so unhealthy that I eliminated it from my diet.

    However, if you really want to eat dairy, just drink half a cup of raw cow’s milk a day. It’s not gonna kill you unless you eat larger portions.

    I can tell wwhy your not feeling the negative effects of dairy. It’s because when you eat something unhealthy, your body’s automatic reactions to tell you it’s bad start to go down, and that’s why cooked foodists don’t notice the food is killing their bodies over the years. It stays in your colon and never quite comes out.

    That being said, I don’t think your going to get much harm from a small wedge of cheese a day or half a glass of milk.

  • greenghostgreenghost Raw Newbie

    you may be right meganthevegan. Communication just by writing leaves out a lot—like voice intonation & emphasis and body language.
    But the phrase ‘Judging by the fact that you’re still doing blah blah blah is the least of your problems’ is a judgmental statement. She even uses the word “Judging”.
    Pardon me if I misunderstood.

    And I admit – I kind of bristle a bit when it seems like there is an “all or nothing” attitude.
    Not everyone can be – or even wishes to be – 100% raw.

  • Oh, I don’t mind the comments rawnora made at all! It’s all said for my benefit. I’m not offended.

    Like all of us here, I’m just trying to get to the best health possible without sacrificing quality of life. Rawnora sounds like she is living the dream of health. We all have different reasons for being raw. For some of us, it’s worth cutting out dairy and coffee and wine. For others, it’s not. I’m just looking for lots and lots of info…

  • SuperfoodSuperfood Raw Newbie

    Rawkidchef, I appreciate your posts, and I understand your perspective, but don’t forget that you’re comparing yourself to the WORST there is. How about setting a standard of causing no harm or the least amount of harm, and then, if you happen to cause some (cow milk, chickens’ broth, etc.), then that’s more than the base scale…..it’s funny, this new perspective, but if you think about it, it’s really easy to say that you’re doing better than X or doing better than Y, but if you strive higher, maybe you can expect more out of yourself.

    Like, what if people’s expectations were that you would rape 2 people per year and you only raped 1. Is that really good? Or are you comparing yourself to a norm that is…..well, lower than you would want to be if you really thought about societal norms and expectations and ethics?

    I love it that I now think this way. I try to improve every day and think about everything I do. I’m not saying that you don’t; I just noted the way you phrased your post (and I like that I know I can talk to you and Troubles w/o problems; that we kind of “get” each other, that we’re not trying to attack – in fact, I seek out your posts sometimes because I love what you have to say!).

  • angie207angie207 Raw Newbie

    I eat raw goat cheese a few times a year, when my body wants it, and it’s definitely not a “killer” :) I HAVE been eating healthy long enough to notice a difference. If I eat cooked starches, I start having a harder time telling what things are good/bad/best for me, but raw goat cheese has never desensitized me like that, even when I ate a lot in several days. Even if I were to eat a half pound at a time, but I only do it a few times a year, that’s still a VERY small percentage of my diet overall. I tend to feel best eating only raw plant foods, unless I don’t. :) Don’t worry; just do what works & feels best for you.

  • angie207angie207 Raw Newbie

    superfood – Interesting perspective! It’s true – there’s likely to always be someone doing something worse. Another way to look at it is that a lot of people are already hard on themselves & they need to see the strength of any & all good choices they make, because it encourages them to make better ones. At least, that works for me. I realized, just now reading your post, that I often have gotten offended/defensive in response to things you’ve said, when you probably meant no harm – I appreciate the perspectives you share. :)

  • Superfood, I’d love to make my own vegan cheese, I bet it would save me hundreds over the course of a year! Where could I find a good recipe? Would it be considered raw?

  • Branwyn32Branwyn32 Raw Newbie

    WW…look up Zoe’s Spring Onion Cheese in the recipes here…it’s delicious! And quite versatile as to what you can flavor it with.

  • SuperfoodSuperfood Raw Newbie

    Hey, Wailing. I have seen recipes that use nuts and herbs, such as this: http://drbenkim.com/raw-dairy-free-cheese-recip…

    They would be mostly or all-raw, depending on what ingredients you specifically use. I have had raw ricotta and also nacho and liked them (not those specific recipes listed though).

  • Hey Winona, I find Soya products mess up my hormones and boy, do I not need that….and I agree with Springleaf, the fake cheeses do not feel right (love the seagull story, they are NOT fussy usually!) Since making the nut cheeses in Ani’s book, I have really cut down on ordinary cheese, which I used to adore. But then I am still transitioning. If it’s raw and you don’t feel it is giving you digestive problems then what is the harm? If you are mostly raw, you are still having a better environmental impact than a meat eater.

    Also, not so good news but not the end of the world, most wines are filtered using fish products (something called isinglass?), so it is best to look out for vegetarian wines, only most bottles don’t say they are non-veg. They will probably be more expensive though :( I enjoy wine and according to David Wolfe it is raw as opposed to beer which is cooked. So cheers mate!

  • Sorry – WailingWoman, not Winona, just come round from a night shift and disorientated. Cheers to you to Winona tho!

  • EEEW! Fish filtering of wine?! That might be enough to turn me off to it. I drink Our Daily Red. It’s an inexpensive organic red with a pretty good flavor. I’ll have to look into the filtering process….yeeeckh.

  • http://www.theorganicwinecompany.com they have vegan organic wines. click on the specialty wines tab on the top.

  • ungratefulungrateful Raw Newbie

    Not exactly on topic, more like bragging, but today I am 9 days dairy free.

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