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Intelligent Christians using common sense...

“I am sure you are all very intelligent people here. I mean to be Raw or even just thinking about it means you are pretty smart. So how come you fall for Christianity? I am sure none of you have read the bible. Cuz if you did you would be aware that it says that homosexuals should die and that women have no right to speak in church and that they should worship their husband just like they worship God and also supports slavery. And people might say “Well in the NEW bible it dosent say that” Oh and I suppose anyone could just come and change a book that was written thousands of years ago. C’mon people-COMMON SENSE. Oh and if any of you want the name of the passages I am speaking of let me know I will be more than glad to tell you.”

In answer to that question, I would ask, did you read the bible?

Anyhow, I have read it and am fully aware of what you are talking about.

Though God himself did not change, the law has been fulfilled when Jesus Christ died for us. Meaning that homosexuals do not need to die (physically) anymore. But rather, through Jesus Christ, we have a way of escape.

To escape the fierce, burning, wrath of God that falls on all those who do not repent.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.



  • Oh my god.. Blew me away how many christians responded to “Hello Christians”!! So crazy to me. It’s like a flock of sheep following an ancient book thats been changed through time! So sad to me.. & All the horrible things that have been supported in “Gods Name” & people still fearfully follow. Baffling.. Hope more people will become brave & explore more evloved ways of loving, that includes “all humanity”.:) Proud to say, “I’m Not a Christian!” It’s ok not to know all the answers to existance. No fear, just love. I’m just a person who loves & grows & changes.. gladfully… open to what the new day brings.:)

  • CarmentinaCarmentina Raw Newbie

    I, an athiest, find this post offensive. What’s the point of deliberately setting out to break down one’s faith system? Come on guys, really, ever heard of “live and let live?” This is exactly the type of behaviour I complain about in the Athiest string. People are entitled to believe whatever they want to, whether you like it or not.

  • Its a response to what an atheist said on another thread. Which, I did not find what she said offensive.

  • U might find this interesting.. www.zeitgeistmovie.com Explians why it is so important to evlove & grow as a species. Very important to this world.. Not upset at religon, just sad.. Really holds back our growth & change as spiritual beings.

  • beate64beate64 Raw Newbie

    I do agree that there is a lot of narrow mindedness in many Christians, and people often interpret the Bible the way it fits into their own politics. (Which by the way you can find in many religions.) The Old Testament has to be seen as a historic book in many ways, otherwise we’d still live in the Middle Age. (And I agree, many behaviors are unfortunately this way.) But you dont change anyone or make them think if you throw stones at them yourselves… and words can be exactly that. To get constructive answers one has to ask accordingly. I do understand your frustration about many things that have to do with Christianity, but this way you will only earn offensive behavior back , which in turn you can justify your initial actions with.

    Anyway, yes, after the Old Testament came the New one, unfortunately many good teachings of Jesus were altered and changed, even taken away because of politics. His messages and teachings are so close to what the Buddha taught, even if I may open up another can of worms with that, unfortunately there was too much politics going on at an earlier point, power and ego, so not much is left of that. Though you can still see it shining through and there are a lot of wonderful insights and messages that are hidden in the text.

    On the opposite side, the teachings of the Buddha were first orally passed on, and in a very exact way, word for word, and then were written down in the same manner, so that you have today still the Whole and not a part here and a part there.

    The other thing is that Eastern religions, where Buddhism is actually not a religion but a science of the mind, lived and experienced psychology on its deepest level, always encouraged deep thinking and discussions. This is also found on a very deep level in Judaism. The Western churches very much took this part and away from the ‘common’ people. They were not to think, but got told, no questioning, no discussion. Even today, and if the sermon is really good, there is something lacking, the active part, the questioning, the going deeper, going beyond. It still gives many people ‘premade’ stuff into their hands and hearts instead of including them actively. A one track mind cannot see beyond. I dont know if I worded that all right…

    I personally do not like the word ‘Religion’, that is all organized and ‘prepared’ for me, putting you in some kind of a box… I also am very leery about the word ‘Christians’ as it resembles for me what you described. I do though believe in Jesus and His teachings and in the same way in the Buddha’s. I see myself as spiritual and I know many things I do would have brought me straight to the burning pole in the past ;)) which was very easy, you only had to be a knowledgeable midwife using herbs and nature to heal…

    That again was politics and had nothing to do with any teachings of Jesus… He was misunderstood and misinterpreted in many ways and it is easy to see why so many people dont want to have anything to do with anything that comes close…

    But we have to see that this is what the people did, not Him… And with people who are on track minded you cant discuss in this way and often not at all… too sad, but thats how it is…

    Oh well, just what came to in these moments…

  • dodododo Raw Newbie

    belikeyeshua if you are refering to me i am not an athiest i am agnostic as well you know. and if anything i consider myself a pagan naturist.

  • If there was no religon.. there would be no room for offense, just individual thinking that would be encouraged & appreciated for the evolution of this world.:)

  • BoyanaGaye, that is a lovely statement, and one that I agree with. Dodo, I was also labeled an “atheist” by Belikeyeshua, although I have never discussed my spiritual beliefs on this website or any other. BTW, I believe Belikeyeshua has previously gone by the user name “Shwagda”; he managed to piss people off plenty before, and has now resumed proselytizing. There is can be no true discussion when anyone claims their’s is the only way. It’s like talking to a wall; my advice is not to fuel it anymore.

  • dodododo Raw Newbie

    Mon46, thanks for the heads up, but at least the plight of the iranian gay men being hung, and the raped women being stoned, this applied to adultry too,or claimed adultery, has been brought to the attention of many more people via some of the conversations so some good came of it. love your lion btw, looks so wise and regal

  • Dodo, you’re right. I guess my own frustration with these “conversations” gets in the way of seeing the good that might come out of them. And if I look more deeply, I see that what we find intolerable in another is what we find intolerable in ourselves. In this case, that includes being reactive and unable to “hear” another person. I must admit it gets tough when another’s views include the condemnation of anyone who doesn’t follow the bible literally; unfortunately, this condemns a great percentage of the planet. Thanks for the compliment about the lion – he’s a lot wiser than me!

  • TomsMom: Amen, sister!

    Mon46 – yes, I almost responded to the first post late last night (all my awful replies are when I can’t sleep!), but then I realized I was being totally baited.

    Dodo – you know I think you’re AWESOME – and I think the ideas of ethics & compassion which you so quickly & passionately bring to every conversation are very worthy of wider discussion.

    I think we should start a separate thread, instead of just reacting to this sh#%. I, for one, would be opposed to simply hijacking this thread, it’s very title is offensive to me.

    Well, it’s another night of being up too late, I may regret this post in the morning. But what do you think? Dinosaur Dance thread? Ethics, compassion & belief? I’m going to sleep, now, but… whoever starts it first wins.. an intersting and real conversation, perhaps.

    Namaste, all. j

  • CaresCares Raw Newbie

    As an ex-christian, now agnostic, I still think everyone has the right to believe whatever they choose and I don’t think a person can say a christian is any more stupid than someone who is into astrology as essentially they are worshiping the same thing anyway. It is also very, very hard to change what you have been raised to believe as truth. When I ditched christianity my sister said she can’t even imagine not believing in Jesus…this coming from a woman whose 7 year old daughter asks “Who’s God?” after hearing a family member say grace. But I do tend to agree that most christians do not read the Bible, at least not in its entirety or in context. With the user name “be like yeshua” I take it you are messianic? If so…are you any less deceived than the christians?

  • dodododo Raw Newbie

    The dinosaur dance :) It sounds like we should start a club, people who have no belief in organised religion, know the bible is not the word of “god”, accept that altho we do not know anyting in connection with the possible existance of an afterlife for fact that there could be one (altho i have seen ghosts and photographed them), who know that compassion to our fellow planet dwellers (all), working together for a better world, mending our battered planet, and setting a good, unbiased, caring example to everyone else is the only way forward.

    for anyone who doesnt understand the dinosaur dance bit, a lot of people have noticed that in the bible there is no mention of dinosaurs, in an era where there would have been a slight mention of them, when pulled on this believers of the 1st edition of the bible will tell you that dinosauors never existed and that their bones were burried in the earth all over the planet by god to test our faith. as the great late bill hicks said, i kinda have a problem believing in A “god” that wants to mess with your mind. im pretty certain there are easier ways of proving you exist.

    religion, money, politics, the three biggest killers of our time, of anytime ever. every religion thinks theres is the one true religion, their set of rules is the only right one, their fictious book is the only genuine one, their rituals are fine but every other religions is wrong.

    of all the billions and millions of humans on this planet there is one thing that seperates ALL of the religions from the rest of us, every single religion has a group of different people that they pick out and victimise, let me make this 100% clear, because this IS fact.

    Every person on this planet is equal, regardeless of colour, sexual preference, religious beliefs, past or future sins, how bad their farts smell, what they eat, where they come from, where they are going to, they are equal.

    every single creature on this planet has the right to live without fear, without judgement, without pain, we all have the right to love, warmth, nuturing, friendship, protection,.

    can you imagion a world where every creature knew they were worth a damn to all the others, that they mattered, and that noone was condeming them for not being a slave to religion. THAT my friends is the world i want to live in, i want to do the dinosaur dance with my friends the chickens, my friends all over the worlds, every nation, every creed, every animal (im not saying the lions wouldnt try to eat me, but that doesnt mean they are wrong, just hungry carnivores)

    the dinosaur dance is the dance that will save this planet, lets start digging for bones :)


  • CarmentinaCarmentina Raw Newbie

    Amen, Dodo! Well put!

  • dodododo Raw Newbie

    for anyone wishing to join the dinosaur club i have started a new thread to that effect


    welcome welcome one and all

  • no, dodo, I was not referring to you. I forget who it was that said that.

  • CalebCaleb Raw Newbie

    “a lot of people have noticed that in the bible there is no mention of dinosaurs”

    Not totally true, some people take these passages to be a dinosaur, there are a few others as well:

    Job 41: “Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope? Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook? ...Can you fill his hide with harpoons or his head with fishing spears?”


    Isaiah 27:1: “In that day the LORD with His severe sword, great and strong, Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan that twisted serpent; And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.


    Psalms 104:24-26: “O Lord, what a variety of things you have made! In wisdom you have made them all. The earth is full of your creatures. Here is the ocean, vast and wide, teeming with life of every kind, both large and small. See the ships sailing along, and Leviathan, which you made to play in the sea.

    Not that it really matters that much though. Just because it doesn’t mention it doesn’t negate (the Bible’s) it’s validity.

    Also, do you not think to form a group against organized religion is itself organized religion? And what forms those world views? Where does the standard come from? Just wondering what your thoughts are since this can has been opened ;)

    Also, belikeyeshua, I am not sure what your point in this thread was? It seems as though you are just trying to stir tings up.

  • First: belikeyeshua, the poster that you originally quoted had that very day had a very bad experience with a religious person and felt judged, torn down, and violated. They talked it out on another thread beyond that with other posters and even went so far as to regret making such ‘blanket statments’.

    Second: BelikeYeshua is indeed Shgadwa as Mon pointed out – I’ve been biting my tongue ever since page one of the clean Icelandic fish thread.

    Third: dodo (your hair is beautiful), I think the Bible does mention a ‘great beast’ in Job 40:15-24 -that could be a dinosaur (maybe brontosaur?). Just saying. Many animals are not mentioned in the Bible. That doesn’t make one thing more true than another. Yes, those people trying to explain away the bones with the ‘God test’ is just silliness!!! I happened to “by coincidence” watch a dvd last night called dinosaurs and the Bible and it was facinating. (one of my husband’s friends gave it to him yesterday). It talked all about dinosaurs co-habitating with humans over the centuries – showing cave drawings, ancient pottery, paintings, writings, etc. that depict dinosaurs acurately – all from different cultures, belief systems, etc. One old cave drawing even showed the markings on the skin of a dinosaur. It was only in recent years that real fossilized skin was found – and it matched the cave drawings! Anyway, there were many logical explanations all throughout the presentation about how it all worked together – just saying – that there is soooo much we don’t know and have yet to understand and discover.

    With that said, there’s a point where ALL of us on this planet have to have a certain faith in whatever we believe or don’t believe.

    I also understand that your point is NOT about peoples silly arguments about the Bible or dinosaurs, BUT it’s about ALL of humanity walking in love and peace one with another. That is a very important issue to discuss and it is good to bring it up. Peace. : )

  • dodododo Raw Newbie

    caleb if a religion is being told to believe you are an equal and walk your own path then thats what this is, altho i dont believe thats the definition of religion.

    dinosaur dance is a group of people who want to walk this world in love, as mamamilk so beautifully said “it’s about ALL of humanity walking in love and peace one with another”

    i would feel happier if the passages that may have been references to larger creatures had been a little more specific, thats the beauty of the dino dance, no proof of anything is required, it just about love, compassion, all the good things.

  • The reason the Bible does not mention dinosaurs is that the word itself did not exist until Richard Owen coined it in 1842 long after the Bible was translated into English.

  • dodododo Raw Newbie

    apologies rawfreak4fr, i evidently wasnt clear enough in my meaning, when i said about dinosaurs not being mentioned in the bible i wasnt refering to the literal word dinosaurs, more to the lack of “help a huge creature is chasing me and i think he wants to eat me” type action in the bible, noones grandfather got devoured in one by a huge scaley monster etc. just an observation noted by many over the years, the only possible references are so scathingly remote that they could be refering to many animals, there is no real “wow these guys are HUGE” type hints there.

    Also i wonder why then many christians would now swear that dinosaurs did not exist and that god had chosen to bury fake dino bones all over the planet in order to test our faith, if people such as youself caleb chose to believe that there may be references in the bible to dinosors, no matter how remote that possibility. is that not another religious division, half of the christians saying one thing and the other half saying another (again dont take that as a literal 50 50 division, i havent done the survey on the actual figures yet ;) )

  • troublesjustabubbletroublesjustabubble Raw Newbie

    hmmm, dodo, not sure who told you about the Christians that deny dinosaurs and said that some how the bones ended up all over the world. I think the majority of earth’s population agrees that dinosaurs existed.

    But, I’m not going to deny that there are a lot of very crazy people out there calling themselves Christians. Sadly enough cares is even right in saying that many “Christians” don’t even read the Bible and only know what they’ve heard in church on Sundays.

    That being said, there are quite a few Christians who take the faith seriously enough to want to learn from the Bible and read it in it’s entirety and context. Sorry if you’ve had some bad experiences with ‘religious’ folks.

  • I highly recommend the dvd “dinosaurs and the Bible” – now it IS from a Biblical Christian perspective, but like I said, it is facinating how it is presented about dinosaurs living among humans throughout history and different cultural societies.

    The Job 40: 15 – 24 references a large animal, in marshes, with a tail like a cedar tree, with powerful, strong and large stomach, hips, thighs and bones. From looking at different texts of this scripture, many people believe this to be a dinosaur – but no one knows for sure. Some say it’s a hippo or elephant – I don’t believe that, because neither of those has a tail like a cedar…

    Dodo, sadly, there is division everywhere in this world. In our congregations, in our homes, even in ourselves! We are all on this journey aren’t we?

    I keep telling myself, “it’s not all about me.” It keeps me grounded and allows me to be a lover of God and people, and open – handed enough to spread some happiness, joy and peace to those around me as well as be a good steward of this planet. : )

    Maybe if we take care of ourselves and each other. If we eat and live healthy lives, we’ll live long enough to humbly learn more…. : )

    Be beautiful to each other, people – This is the season of our rejoicing! God Bless!

  • Here’s a link that actually supports what both dodo and TJAB are saying:


    Just a little levity…

  • troublesjustabubbletroublesjustabubble Raw Newbie

    ha, well, in a way I guess.

    Not gonna get into what I believe as there are sure to be many discouraging statements following but I would like to say this;

    no one can prove whether dinosaurs walked with man or without or how old the earth is. Each chooses their theory and takes it on faith. Either that or they decide to take no theory and assume the world has existed forever. None of us were there in the beginning of time and no record was written.

    There are some great guesses out there though. haha

  • MamaMilk- you are right about the “original post” by belikeyeshua in this thread being from another poster who was upset. She posted it in both the Atheist and Christian forum. May still be there. Thanks for the suggestion for the DVD. It just happens to be what my 11 year old son is studying in History right now. I use a virtual academy, so my kids are “public schooled at home”....which brings me to my point.

    I teach the evolution theory as well as creation to my kids. I was only taught big bang/evolution in school and at home growing up (atheist family) and it left a lot of unanswered questions. I started finding the answers to those questions in creation science. I find more evidence that Dinosaurs roamed the Earth about 6000 years ago, from other texts besides the Bible. This link has a great example of an ancient egyptian text clearly describing Dinosaurs.


    Also, I think my son said it best just today, when he said, “If we did not have huge living creatures like Elephants, Whales, Giraffes, Hippos, etc. living today to study, what would we think if we only had the bones to study, we might think that elephants were viscious, or that Giraffes were mean because they are 19 feet tall.” The largest Whale, I believe, can measure around 100 feet long, where the average size of Dinosaurs were about the size of Horses. Some as small as Chickens, and the largest (known) being 40 feet tall. It is all very fascinating, and I love learning with my son. It is true, there is soooo much that we just do not know.

  • I didn’t want to get baited into this thing, but before I jump back to join the non-superstitious over in the Dinosaur Dance thread, I’ll just mention that things like “here is something that shows dinosaurs existed with humans” or the occasional single piece of “proof” that shows that all the scientists working for years searching for anything that would discredit evolution or would provide evidence (real, concrete evidence) for the existence of god are wrong are just wishful thinking.

    Can you imagine the career break a scientist would have if he were able to prove something like that? Don’t think that thousands and thousands of researchers and scientists aren’t trying to do just that; don’t think many of them aren’t wishing – they would be set for life and would be as famous as Darwin.

    Of course that would be historic; but, alas, ‘tis not gonna happen. Evolution is a scientific fact, and it would be a monumental undertaking to try to disprove it or discredit it. Now, before someone jumps in and says that it’s “just a theory”, be careful: There are very few “laws” in science, because science demands so much to prove something, and for something to graduate from a theory to a scientific law, it must be tested and proven beyond a doubt.

    A scientific “theory” means that something is testable. Other than that, it is considered a scientific fact.

    As Carl Sagan said: “To say that evolution is just a theory is like saying that the laws of gravity are just a theory.”

    Anyway, yes, it has been proven, over and over again, that dinosaurs did NOT walk the earth with people. They existed millions of years apart.

    I encourage everyone here to read Richard Dawkins’ The God Delusion or Sam Harris’ Letter to a Christian Nation or Dan Barker’s Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist. The logic is irrefutable, let alone the science. They’re great reads, too. These are enlightened people, thinkers, people who want answers, like other atheists such as, oh, Einstein, Ben Franklin, Galileo, Abraham Lincoln.

    “Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits.”

    Dan Barker, Losing Faith in Faith, 1992
  • CalebCaleb Raw Newbie

    Hey DoDo, I have actually never heard another (or heard of one) Christian claim dinosaurs don’t exist. It would be absurd to make such a statement. Also, the way I see it it doesn’t matter if humans existed at the same time or not. It’s totally irrelevant to the faith.

    Also, not sure what you meant by “if a religion is being told to believe you are an equal and walk your own path then thats what this is, altho i dont believe thats the definition of religion.”

    But based on what I see here I don’t see that as a definition of religion either, it’s MUCH more complicated than that ;) But now that I think about my original question, it seems a bit dumb in light of my view of religion. I typically try to stay away from message board posts about the deeper meanings in life because I tend to not thing about things and just post. hehe. Oh well, hopefully it wasn’t taken the wrong way.

  • dodododo Raw Newbie

    Caleb, of course its not taken the wrong way, i was raised around christians, my sister is a christian as is her family, they see me as a threat as my life style isnt in keeping with their faith so they dont see me, speak to me, and i have never been allowed to see my own nephew. my sister, and all of the churches she has belonged to over the years, church of england, baptist, and relevelation church have all denied teh existance of dinosaurs to me and put forward the trickster god as a reason, so you can see, altho your church of christians do believe in dinosaurs many others dont, two differnt beliefs (far more but we will say two to keep it brief) from the same group of people. christianity seems to take many guises so its hard to keep track who believes what

    the religion part, religion involves an idol or a god or a figure, the dinosaur dance club is no more a religion than a cookery club or the red cross, we are a group of people with a common interest, peace. we want to make this world a better place to live in without having to pretend we are doing it for a god or idol, to do something because you feel you have to is always less rewarding for all concerned, to do something positive directly from your heart becasue you want to and you care, then that is something that is really felt. its not an obligation, it is a choice to make a difference.

    Caleb, i hope you have a beautiful day, and if you see a tramp give them something, even if it is just a smile, but dont follow it up with god bless you, when people say that to me its not them i hear saying it its their christianity, i dont want people passing on a good word from something that may or may not exist, i want to hear people passing on good words to me from themselves, heart felt feelings from them, that THEY care, whether god exists or not is irrelevent to that end, the love and peace and mending has to come from us, we are here, we actually caused most of the mess, its up to us to clear it up without involving religion.

  • beanybeeganbeanybeegan Raw Newbie

    God is love. Jesus is love. The Christians great commission is to love one another, tho maybe not their ways. Christians are learning and growing in there faith. We will not all be at the same level in our love. Some may find it even hard to love some people, but years down the road they learn that they can love through God. We are just people. Some rich, some not so. Some with great learning and skills, some not so much. A true Christian does not hate or condemn, but we do not have to agree. Personally I don’t understand what this whole forum is about but thought I would jump in as I see much confusion about Christians.

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