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Shift away veganism in raw food

achin70achin70 Raw Newbie

Hello All,

Here's an article from the Fresh Network that I thought would be of interest:


January 26, 2010

Why the shift away from veganism in the raw world?

As you may already have noticed, a big change has taken place in theraw food world, and this change is ongoing. More and more raw foodauthors, coaches and speakers are coming forward either to say they'renot vegan anymore, to publicly promote the health benefits of certainanimal products, or to warn that the vegan diet does not provide allnecessary nutrients so vegans must supplement. Taking into account those raw leaders who have never been completelyvegan anyway, we can now count very few raw food promoters who are100% vegan themselves and who also say that a 100% raw vegan dietprovides us with everything we need (i.e. that there is no need tosupplement). We decided a while ago that this phenomenon deserved acloser look, so we have been busy discussing this shift with ourcontacts and also investigating what may be causing it. Before going any further, we wish to acknowledge the gigantic ethicaland environmental justifications for avoiding animal products, and thefact that for many, eating these foods is not an option, regardless ofany alleged or real health benefits. And indeed this is whythere are passionate vegans who do not believe the vegan diet is ournatural diet, but who choose to stay vegan and supplement rather thanconsume animal products. Today we bring you the opinions of five people who are well-known inthe raw food community. This is a small cross section of the commentswe've collected, and it is representative of the answers we've beenhearing in response to our question, "Why has there been a shift awayfrom veganism in the raw movement?"

Fred Bisci is a nutritionist and food scientist. He has been followinga raw diet for over 40 years. He is vegan and believes a raw vegandiet can be the healthiest way to eat if people do it correctly, whichmeans monitoring their nutrient levels and supplementing wherenecessary.



  • eechoeecho Raw Newbie

    interesting. i began supplementing B12 recently. If I ever go off vegan I think it will be with eggs, although i would probably supplement before i did that.

  • the59soundthe59sound Raw Newbie

    These people aren't raw foodists, they're part of the 'raw community'. Meanwhile, those of us on 80/10/10 are eating nothing but RAW FOOD. To my knowledge, if you're not 811, you're not telling the truth about your raw diet. Those people fail because their diets are inadequate. Then they bad mouth fruit...haha. It's a shame.

  • eechoeecho Raw Newbie

    lol, yes everyone is lying

  • RawKidChefRawKidChef Raw Newbie

    lol it's so true

    I was trying raw milk for a while but I felt so toxic on it that I got rid of it. back to my cherimoya, apple, and orange diet.

  • I find that people who are "experts" and in the media are typical your narcissists anyways. I also feel there are alot of people who want to become vegan/vegetarian mainly to lose weight, I think thats total crap vegan/vegetarian is a lifestyle not some diet fad, it's about making the world a better place one free of exploitation, slavery, murder and savagery. It's about living in peace with your surroundings and non-violence. If you want to go "vegan" because you hear its a great way to lose some weight then chances are you'll hear some evidence about how it's "unhealthy" for you and decide not to be a vegan anymore. There is alot of misinformation out there and large companies use that to exploit fear out of people. That's why you must believe that you are making the change for the reasons listed above because then it won't matter because you will know in your heart it's the right thing to do and find a way to continue. But ya that's how I feel about.

  • swayzeswayze Raw Newbie

    Well said, Dr. Graham! Per usual, of course. :D



  • sisterbeckysisterbecky Raw Newbie


    Thanks for the interesting article.

  • achin70achin70 Raw Newbie

    Thanks for the comments, interesting all. Most so far seem to be in the Dr. Graham camp.

    One supplement that seems to be difficult to avoid if you're aiming for optimal health and you're living above 35 degrees latitude is vitamin D. It seems to play a large role in preventing about 17 different cancers, since it's a pleiotropic, seco-steroid hormone with wide-ranging effects on your DNA. You should be up around 50-65 nanograms/ml. I suppose you can get by with a lower amount, but there is a difference between decent health and optimal health. LOL. :)

  • achin70achin70 Raw Newbie

    And oh, by the way, a friend of mine forwarded an online response. Here's the article, and the link as well:


    Greetings, all!

    Glad you liked my cabbage cups. I love having readers who appreciate the joys of simple food as much as I do.

    A few days ago, blog reader Lisa sent me a link to this article, which details ongoing controversy about whether or not a 100% raw, vegan lifestyle is optimal. A few notable raw figures have recently announced that they

  • i feel like reflecting.

    i loved every word from this whole forum. very thought provoking.

    i completely agree, everyone should listen to there bodies...and their heart. as i am only one, person and only experianced what i feel , and what feels good and healthy and spirtiually sound to me, isn't he same as everyone else.

    i do think there is a bunch of narsissitic experts out there, that don't know anything, except that because they have failed....and that because they are "experts" that this way of living is unhealthy....but only because perhaps they wanted it to fail. i, mean wouldn't that be easier...if your heart wasen't in it for the right reasons?

    if you feel good about what your doing, and continually feel alive...yessssssssssssssss, if you notice something is lacking...i'm completely positive with the right amount of research , and passion, one could live raw. and completley diciplined, and enjoy a healthy life for the sake of it as well.

    although... if needed with supplemintation or, enjoy some cooked vegan foods, or. if need be, for your own health and/or body type/ or because of lack of knowldge then ....take the doctors orders as last result and drink the goats milk. ...or whatever...yah still gotta live.

    i'll requote these last 2 sentances form achin70, because.. i like 'em

    Always be smart about maintaining a diet that

  • Since everyone is throwing quotes around I'll add one of my own. This is from the french Philosopher Pierre-Joseph Proudhon.

    I were asked to answer the following question: What is slavery ? and I should answer in one word, It is murder, my meaning would be understood at once. No extended argument would be required to show that the power to take from a man his thought, his will, his personality, is a power of life and death; and that to enslave a man is to kill him. Why, then, to this other question : What is property? may I not likewise answer, // is robbery, without the certainty of being misunderstood ; the second proposition being no other than a transformation of the first ?

  • leafygreenleafygreen Raw Newbie

    durianrider-I thought your diet consisted of large amounts of sweet fruit?

  • swayzeswayze Raw Newbie

    leafygreen, he does. What he's saying is that the people who fail believe that it's possible to overeat sweet fruit. As a result, they tend to undereat and return to less optimal foods.



  • CeidrenCeidren Raw Superstar

    That sounds good, Greenwood. Personally, switching from 100% raw to having a baked sweet potato and plain steamed vegetables for dinner every night has made a world of good difference, whilst bringing nothing bad. My cravings are gone and my emotions are stabilized, while I still eat a healthy, clean, mostly raw diet. You certainly can overeat fruit--anyone with a past of binge eating disorder will tell you how. You can overeat anything, and a low-fat whole foods vegan diet is so much easier with some cooked vegetables, I've found.

  • swayzeswayze Raw Newbie

    Ceidren, what do you mean by "overeat" on fruit? Do you mean overeat on calories or overeat in one sitting?

    I was a binge eater/bulimic for years and yet I find it very difficult to overeat on fruit in terms of calories. I have eaten too much melon before (the dreaded melon belly), but it was simply from eating too much in one meal (melon is very water-rich and so low in calories), not from calories. That's why I stick with only dense fruits for my breakfast and lunch meals, where I get in most of my calories.

    Once I'm satiated from, say, a meal of bananas, I'm completely full (about 1000 calories or so). I have absolutely no desire to eat another bite of anything for several hours.



  • greenwoodgreenwood Raw Newbie

    "That sounds good, Greenwood. Personally, switching from 100% raw to having a baked sweet potato and plain steamed vegetables for dinner every night has made a world of good difference, whilst bringing nothing bad. My cravings are gone and my emotions are stabilized, while I still eat a healthy, clean, mostly raw diet. You certainly can overeat fruit--anyone with a past of binge eating disorder will tell you how. You can overeat anything, and a low-fat whole foods vegan diet is so much easier with some cooked vegetables, I've found."

    What I have plannned will work for me I think- tommorrow is shopping day at last!! (It is governed by my unemployment money- which is called dole here). I think different people respond to different ratios of fruit and veg- I have every respect for those who do 80 10 10- but I couldn't mostly live on fruit- the taste is too sweet for me- I like fruit but can only manage about 5 pieces a day eg- 1 banana, 1 mango, 1 pear, handful of cherries, 1 kiwi fruit. I drink plenty of watered fruit juice throughout the day. I haven't got a big sweet tooth preferring savoury tastes.I was always the one to go for the sandwiches, crisps, pizza slices and nuts at parties/dos than the cakes!

  • superfood2superfood2 Raw Newbie

    I don't think any of us are eating on behalf of our teeth; we are nourishing our bodies. :)

  • greenwoodgreenwood Raw Newbie

    I mean we all have preferences to taste- some people really prefer and enjoy foods with sweet tastes and some prefer savoury non- sweet tasting food- I am the latter. There are plenty of natural wholesome foods with both sweet and savoury tastes.

  • CeidrenCeidren Raw Superstar

    Swayze, I did mean in one sitting--eating until you are way past full, and feel sick/uncomfortable. I certainly overate in that way on just fruits sometimes in the past, and that's generally what I think of when I see the word overeating (and I remember the acid reflux, bloating, and pain...) But most of my calories come from dense fruits eaten at breakfast/lunch, as well--I don't consider ratios to be overeating.

    I think my body does have a preference for savoury/grounding foods--but it doesn't want fat anymore, so I'm glad I can make vegetables palatable by just cooking (without the avocados, acids, salts, oils, garlic...) Because I need them more than I do lots of light, watery fruits.

  • swayzeswayze Raw Newbie

    Oh okay, I gotcha. Belly pain from too much food definitely isn't fun. :)



  • sweetsweet Raw Newbie

    I can go crazy on fruit. I keep eating like almost every half hour, sometimes every five hours if im at work. Ive been continouisly eating alot of grapes, I feel like I want some cooked quinoa, or cooked veggies. I cant eat raw veggies, because its hard to digest,, I had raw corn tomatoe, and parsley, but im fed up on just fruit. I had mung beans sprouted . I cant stop eating!

    I really love cooked broccoli or peas:) I wish I can eat that with fresh fruit. What is wrong with eating cooked broccoli or peas, or quinoa? If you eat them plain all organic,with no salt etc. whats so wrong with it.

  • swayzeswayze Raw Newbie

    Hi sweet,

    I have to ask: are you getting in enough calories? If you are eating enough calories at each meal, you won't be eating all day long.

    And no, there is nothing wrong with eating cooked food. You can do whatever you like! :)



  • greenwoodgreenwood Raw Newbie

    Sweet like you, I like a little cooked food- but only wholefood and not processed rubbish! I've read that artilce before achin- I think you have posted before that you have a little cooked wholefoods also? For me it is important that I get all my minerals, vitamains etc and not additives, preservatives and have wholesome nutritious vegan food.

    When I had the food intolerance test it was revealed that I was intolerant to eggs and milk products (which I suspected and cut out by going from veggie to vegan last year) but not goat's cheese/milk- the lady doing the test saw that goat's products would actually be "good" for me, but I wish to stay vegan.She told me goats lactate all the time and that they don't have their babies taken away to produce milk like cows, but I'm dubious on that.

  • sweetsweet Raw Newbie

    Would adding organic cooked peas, broccoli, cauliflour and other veggies, be healthy?

  • sweetsweet Raw Newbie

    I get gas, bloating when eating raw veggies, thats why I eat only fruit, its easier to digest

  • superfood2superfood2 Raw Newbie

    Yeah, having gas is uncomfortable. HOw does raw celery do for you?

  • sweetsweet Raw Newbie

    hmm celery , I havnt eaten celery for so long, I should eat some, and sse how I feel.:)

  • swayzeswayze Raw Newbie

    Celery is great, as well as romaine, iceberg, and bib lettuce. Most people do just fine digesting those. And don't forget about non-sweet fruits like tomatoes, cucumbers, and zucchini either. :)



  • sweetsweet Raw Newbie

    I eat alot of tomatoes their good, like the small cherry tomatoes:). Eating tomatoes in access can cause acid in the stomach??

  • swayzeswayze Raw Newbie

    There's no problem with eating tomatoes. Just remember that they are not a sweet fruit and so are not included in the 80% carbohydrates (80/10/10). They are generally eaten at the end of the day along with tender leafy greens and overt fats.

    For the record, I eat tomatoes pretty much everyday of the year. :)



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