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sid 23 – there are people in Iran who are raw vegan and have been tested and they have no b12 deficiency. They are a long term community of raw vegans, generations old. It is believed that they aren’t deficient because they use their own poo to fertilise their vegetables. And so absorb their own b12 back into their bodies again. They are a simple farming community, I believe this practice is quite common, although not in the Western world.
Hi Sid! I buy it flaked but I have flaked it myself in a coffee grinder how I do flax seeds/etc. It’s also lovely just enjoying in strips with chopped apples and soaked almonds : ) You get a sweet, salty, crunchy snack that way. The flakes I add to everything, lol I’ve even eaten it with a mashed avocado and banana mixed together ;D
Enjoy and blessings to you!
It’s possible for meat eaters who have not had a gastric bypass operation to be B12 deficient. Your body can somehow diminish the B12 present. I saw it on the Discovery channel on one of those mystery diagnosis shows.
I eat soup at Chinese buffets. That’s the only meat derivative I eat. I don’t eat dairy. And I’m not B12 deficient.
Making sure you get a variety of raw foods including greens, not just three or four, could help.
Why don’t you eat Klamath Wild Blue Green Algae? It’s got B12.
Another option, is now, there’s a new RAW vitamin on the market called the Vitamin Code, made by Garden of Life, and is a complete multivitamin. You take 1 tablet a day. It is pretty expensive, but maybe it’s worth it??? I’ve been taking Vitamin Shoppe’s brand, which is the same except I can’t figure out if it’s raw.
I’ve been intrigued by this B12 stuff since I read the first post and symptoms of deficiency. While I haven’t been doing the raw thing very long and am definitely not 100% raw or 100% vegan, I didn’t eat alot of animal products other than dairy before anyway, or yeast or bee pollen or algae or anything. I’ve also been fatigued for longer than I can remember and have thinner hair than I did years ago (pre-anorexia & bulimia and still eating very SAD) that won’t grow. I know I don’t get enough sleep, but the fatigue has started to get out of control to the point where it can’t just be lack of sleep.
So I thought what the hell, and got some sublingual B12 dots, the weren’t that expensive I don’t really get why they’re over 16,000% DV, so I figured I’d take a daily dose for a few days to really get alot of it into my body, then take it down to once or twice a week. Within the first 12 hours of taking it (the next morning), the result was shocking. I woke up in the morning and didn’t feel like the walking dead like I usually do…within 15 minutes of getting out of bed I was awake, alert, and rested (on only about 6 hrs sleep). I seriously do not remember the last time I didn’t feel like death upon the alarm going off and continued to feel like a zombie most of the day…but I was awake and alert and I dare say, ENERGETIC, the whole day! I had to have been deficient. I’ve taken it again the past 2 days with the same resulting increase in energy.
Yesterday was my 3rd day on it. I started to develop a mild headache early in the day and it’s continued straight on through til today. Sleep, water, pain relievers, nothing has touched it. I’m wondering if it has something to do with the massive doses of B12? Anyone have any thoughts?
Hi Branwyn. You took a pharmaceutical level of B12, and who knows what that will do. Be careful! Read the article segment below, which is from T. Colin Campbell Foundation (China Study). The article I am taking from is by Pam Popper, PhD, ND.
And everyone else following this thread: It takes 7 years for B12 deficiency.
Absorption of B12 is dependent upon enough hydrochloric acid in the stomach. Stomach acid production decreases with age, but green tea stimulates increased HCL production. Intrinsic factor in the small intestine is also necessary for B12 absorption. Intrinsic factor is secreted by the parietal cells of the stomach. This is another reason why it is so important to pay attention to digestive health and the condition of the intestines. The body stores B12, and it takes many years to develop a deficiency, which can cause nerve damage. Deficiency can result from inadequate intake, lack of intrinsic factor, unhealthy conditions in the gut, or thyroid disorders. Supplementation alone, therefore, does not always fix the problem. The cause must be diagnosed in order to remedy the deficiency condition. Strict vegans can run the risk of B12 deficiencies, although the consumption of fortified foods makes this unlikely. Additionally, the body stores B-12, it takes about 7 years with no B-12 consumption to result in a true deficiency. Individuals can either take a B-12 supplement or increase consumption of food sources, which include yeast, sea vegetables, and spirulina. Folic acid works synergistically with B12, and is critical for cell division and healthy nerve tissue. Deficiency affects all cells in the body. Folate deficiencies develop from consuming the Standard American Diet, especially from consuming mostly cooked vegetables since cooking destroys folate (it is fragile). Alcohol, pharmaceutical drugs, and oral contraceptives also deplete folic acid from the body. Taking large doses of folic acid in the form of supplementation can mask a B12 deficiency, which can be dangerous. Again this is the reason you should be very careful about supplementation. Food sources of folate include dark leafy greens, yeast, rice germ, wheat germ, blackeye peas, beans, lentils, asparagus, liver, soybeans, wheat bran and walnuts. Most pregnant women are told to take a folic acid supplement. This is based on the assumption of most physicians that their average patient is consuming the Standard American Diet. However, women who consume a plant-based diet like the one that I recommend are unlikely to need supplementation.
Interesting.
Your symptoms could be from something other than B12 deficiency. That goes for others here who haven’t been tested. Also, I think someone mentioned that the B12 test is often wrong anyway.
For those of you who don’t scrub your veggies so much and still think you might have any issue, are they organic? Conventionally grown stuff is grown in deficient soils, and if you drink alchohol or have absorption issues, or are on contraceptives, there could be a combination thing going on.
I try to include fermented and cultured stuff as often as possible. I dig GT Dave’s Synergy Kombochu teas (Trilogy rocks!). Maybe dodo can send me a case (just wanna see if she’s still reading this thread).
And by organic veggies, I mean every single time. I’m convinced supplements don’t work, but food does!
I’ve been taking the same dose of B12 for weeks (16,000% DV) and I haven’t had any problems. I’d imagine the dosage is so high because B12 is difficult to absorb when taken orally.
Mister Mickmaster, I dont scrub my veggies, i threaten them with a splash of h20 and the excess dirt voluntarily leaps off, staying clear of yeast for the interim until i get the mri results tuesday,im ordering spirulina today (and vegan probiotic powder and maca but im not taking the maca till i get the all clear tue either). I dont eat fortified cereals as i dont think ive seen a raw one yet.
my deficiency was from 8 years strict veganism with a cocky attitude to nutrition, i didnt realise it took 7 years (did after the quack told me), so i wonder with all the copious amounts of b12 they shovelled into me, and my new found knowlege and nice juicy high levels of b12 now, would i not now be safe for another 7 years without the suppliments, if it stays in your body that long b4 depleating would not one big dose say every 5 years work (only joking).
seriously though im hoping the spirulina will remove the need for suplements as i dont like going against nature.
Offtopic ….. MMM, that comment in the email, is that true, is it really THAT big? wow, i didnt think that was possible, especially on a paltry vegan diet!!!! ;)
dodo, Good evening (for you it is right?).
Yea, I used to think I was healthy by cleaning the crap off every veggie before I ate it (again with the crap), and I probably didn’t eat enough raw veggies when I was veggie back then anyway, but I noticed a huge change when I went raw as my energy levels went up and sleep requirement went down. I’m down to 5-1/2 to 6-1/2 hrs a night from 8 or more.
You know B12 is not yeast, but yeast has B12 (a little bit), right?
And, well, it IS that big, but I want dates here, not a stampede, dodo!
Dear dodo – let me/us know how your test turns out. Maybe you have an absorption thing if you took B12 supplement before.
I don’t want to take any supplements either as it doesn’t help the raw cause…
MMMmmmmm. yeah i was refering to the b12 in yeast and im laying off all yeast until i know whats happening with my arm. i think im going to stay off the nutritional yeast tho fullstop, love it but its not going to help me in my raaaaaw ways now is it
i also have a very sturdy riot shield somewhere if that will assit you in fighting off the onslaught my slapdash comment may have triggered for you :P
Well, you know it’s not the size of the zucchini, it’s how you prepare it. Put that knife away….step away from the knife….
dodo, I mean it…
off topic…MMMmmmm my hair isnt pink! ;) its craptastic dark brown now!
Not to be a downer but the best source of B12 is animals. Raw lifestyle is great but when it threatens your health you may want to consider more balence. The website BeyondVeg.com has great information on B12 and why animal sources are important.
Well it’s pinktastic in the pic! (I know it’s brown, and YOU know it’s brown, but not everyone else knows it’s brown).
Hmmm….I wonder where animals get B12?
When it threatens your health? It’s the only natural way to eat. The SAD diet threatens the health of everyone who eats it, as well as the tortured animals and disappearing rain forest, and….I could go on, of course.
The beyondveg guy is a former raw who couldn’t hack it and he presents selective information and probably thinks we hunted and ate meat as cavemen….
The majority of the folks here have evolved to this point for various reasons and probably do not want to devolve.
Again, B12 is a bacteria, animals get their B12 from organic (wild) plants, the B12 take hold in the digestive system, we are animals, and there ya go.
Some of the folks who mentioned deficiency might have some other issue, not deficiency, some have absorbability issues, some have it from before being raw, some have a misdiagnosis, some don’t get enough organic food in their diet and clean it too much….
...Another vegan/raw myth to dispense with…
Parasites.
durianrider, they also feed the farm animals antibiotics too, because the conditions they are forced to live in are so filthy disease is rife. That alone is a good enough reason for me to seek my b12 from a different source. i wont even go into the other 101 reasons why i wouldnt eat any other way. Although i will if you want me to. but i think that would be a seperate thread mainly concentration mainly on animal rights and enviromental protection.
i wish i had the guts to feed my pets a totally natural diet, ie raw meat for them as they are both carnivores and then i wouldnt be forcing them to eat the crap they put in the tinned food. i have vowed not to adopt another carnivore in the future as i cant justify supporting the pet food industry, they suck as much as the other meat industries. i think my squidface kitty will be with me for a long time but after she goes there will be only herbivores in the household so i dont get forced to partake it the cruelty any more.
hey dodo, feeding cats raw isn’t so bad, if you ever want to chat about it you can email me if you like
thanks for the offer zoe but i really dont think i could handle dead things, ive been vegan 8.5 years and i couldnt be more upset if a human was in the cold cabinet at the store than i am at the dead array there so to speak. im one of those that couldnt even kill an animal to put it out of its misery if it was suffering (im ashamed to say). i just couldnt deal with going into a butchers to buy meat for the kittehs :( does that make me a wimp?
DreamBrother writes, Jan 16, 2008: (43 posts)
just wanted to let everyone know that it IS possible to develop a b12 deficieny fairly quickly. Ive been raw for 11 months now just got some blood results back and B12 came up very low. I
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dodo writes, Sep 23, 2008: (120 posts)
i got sick from b12 deficiency, the doc said is was less than half the safe lowest level and the lowest he had ever seen. his daughter is vegan too so he understood where i was coming from. i can only assume that the b12 supplements do absorb as mine is back and healthy where it should be. i too leave the skin on my veg from my garden (only on organic veg) so dont understand why i got so low.
Hello dodo,
Which test was used to determine that your were deficient?
The standard blood test used is worthless and most Doctors are unaware of this. The only accurate test for b12 is a MMA test of the urine that involves fasting and eating about a cup of something that looks like laundry powder. Unless you remember doing this you have not been tested for B12.
All of Gabriel Cousins original B12 work (the stuff you see posted often) was done using blood tests and he now considers those results to be worthless.
I concede that we are living far from naturally and that I do not know where the line is crossed exactly for each person. I just know that it is possible to be Raw Vegan and not short on B12. I also know that my body stores it for five years or more and so I had a nibble of a tablet twice a week for about six weeks about a year ago. A tablet is about 8000 times more than your body can take on so a nibble is all you need. I don’t mind doing that every few years until I am pooing on enough of my food to make the smallest glimpse of worry go away.
Lovebows, Chris
what i was trying to say is that i dont completely believe my deficiency came from my being vegan, my being a careless vegan may not have helped but i have had a lot of absorbtion, digestion and allergy problems in the past so i wouldnt be suprised if that were at least part of the cause of the deficiency. taking the suppliments however must be absorbed or why did my levels go back to where they should be when i took pharmacutical amounts, i was on 1,000 times the rda.
hi chris, sorry i jumped the gun there. im pretty certain they were right about me being deficient as i was tired, and sick all the time, the tablets set me up again, i take them maybe once a week now as i dont understand why they want me to take them every day if my stores are back up and it takes 7 years to deplete, makes no sense to me.
im still pretty certain i was that low because of my body, i had problems when i was younger too and nearly starved myself, i had many physical things that could account for my deficiency, its just that theres no way of me knowing why it happened to me for sure.
from what i understand excess b12 is pee’d out so i wonder if you could utilise that as a fertilser somehow rather than going the poopey route? mind you a friend of mine travelled and spent a stint in china i think it was, they stayed at a uni that had litter trays in draw stacks, you used your own tray and the mess was used to fertilise the unis veg garden that fed the students. he also was allowed to help set some paddy fields and he said you just wee and poo as you work in the water, eeeeeew
why did my levels go back to where they should be?
What test was used to determine this?
I’m not really trying to single out anyone or any specific point on this thread I am just trying to get the newest information out in the open.
Let me be clear. All (99.98%) of anything thing you see written about humans and B12 was based on studies done using blood test which are now known to be useless. (useless = not even mildly accurate or good enough to be considered indicative) All guidelines and levels have also been based on these tests. It is all nothing more than years of bad information based on one original mistake. (i.e. thinking that the level of b12 in the bloodstream at any one time was indicative or even important. It’s not!)
The stress and worry caused by this bad science needs to end.
Big surprise… test meat eaters and vegans. wow the vegans have lower levels of B12 in their blood stream. nothing to do with their food intake over the last few days that is still swirling around in them. wow this is important science we are great scientists. we must tell everyone what to do based on our amazing discovery.
Science is great, but you have to take it with a grain of salt. But not too much salt cause it will kill you.
Lovebows, Chris
Even any personal experience of the effects of B12, lack of it, change from supplements, etc. could all be nothing more than the Placebo effect of all the belief in this originally flawed science. They now know that persons eating all types of diets have B12 deficiency. They don’t know why. They also know that the pH in our tummy and how it effects our ‘intrinsic factor’ has something to do with it all.
To sum up… They don’t know! We don’t know! Worry based on this subject is surely it’s most serious health effect. Please help spread the facts and help others to stop worry based on science. We barely know anything about health.
This is why basic common sense like eating raw plant foods can not be downplayed. That being said, not poisoning ourselves is a good start, but diet alone is not enough. Blaming all our symptoms on our eating alone is irresponsible thinking.
Lovebows, Chris
Chris, thanks for sharing. Where did you get this newest information? I’d like to check it out.
I’m researching this topic and keep finding the same old conventional wisdom, which in this case I think is an oxymoron. I also got directed to a vid clip from Dr. Cousens, and don’t know how old it is or what the whole context was. He could have started his talk by saying “What I’m about to tell you is the old myth about B12” and that part was edited out, a la Fox News.
I’m thoroughly convinced that a healthy raw foodie who eats mostly organic and doesn’t scrub the daylights out of their food should be fine unless there are absorption issues, or there’s been major surgery, or some of the other things we’ve mentioned in this topic, which are all independent of dietary rawness.
ciao4now.