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why are so many on this site afraid of fruit?



  • RawKarateGirlRawKarateGirl Raw Newbie

    hello. What do you eat or cut out from a lot-fat raw diet? I'm trying to lose some weight.

  • kellyannekellyanne Raw Newbie

    hi! you eat less than 10% of your calories from fat. you can still eat avocado, nuts and seeds, etc. if you desire but you shouldn't eat more than 10% of your calories from them. eat a ton of sweet fruits and some non-sweet fruits like zucchini, cucumber, bell pepper, etc. with the addition of greens like celery and lettuce.

  • RawKarateGirlRawKarateGirl Raw Newbie

    Thank you so much. I have a dance recital it a few weeks and want to look great. So I wasn't sure what I should do to lose weight.

  • kellyannekellyanne Raw Newbie

    you're welcome! i would exercise a bunch too. jogging for 10-30 min per day with short intervals of sprinting will burn fat. you have to do it in the morning on an empty stomach for it to be really effective though. and don't worry, your body stores enough glucose from the previous day so you'll have plenty of energy. hope this helps!

  • RawKarateGirlRawKarateGirl Raw Newbie

    Thank you! I'm a tap dancer and don't want to bulk up. So any other exercise's I should do? If I jog on my rebounder would I get the same results? I've fallen off the wagon and gained the weight I've lost eating raw and feel really crappy. Thanks again!

    p.s. if anyone else has any ideas that would be great! I have a little less than 3 weeks to do this.

  • sv3sv3 Raw Newbie

    Kelly, that's very interesting what you say about running first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. I havent heard that before. I current do quite a bit of (interval) running and am skinny all over except for my stomach, which still has a bit of a tire. Been trying to target this area with pilates but think the amount of fat I'm eating is not helping. I checked my %'s on fitday and found that I eat around 35% fat which I think must be too high. Just one tablespoon of olive oil along with my sunflower seed pate really ups the %. Think I'm going to start looking for oil free salad dressings. Any suggestions?

  • pixxpixx Raw Master

    sv3 I often use just the juice of a lime, or lemon, or a few wedges of an orange, for salad dressing. Also, tomato blended with mango and a bit of lime (& if you use them: shallot/onion, and maybe garlic, added in) is really good.

  • emtpdmomemtpdmom Raw Newbie

    My new favorite salad dressing is also lime juice. Two years ago I would never have believed lime juice could taste so good on a salad. If lime isn't available, my second choice is orange juice. Some of my fellow teachers seem to think I've gone a little wacko. If they only knew how good it really is . . .

  • superfood2superfood2 Raw Newbie

    I just wanted to say that while I believe some 80-10-10 people are pushy/do not subscribe to "live and let live," I think Kelly's posts have been nothing but respectful and helpful.

  • troublesjustabubbletroublesjustabubble Raw Newbie

    Kelly, I always run on an empty stomach too. Definitely feels waaay better.

    But I disagree with you on the B-12 issue. You may feel great for years without supplementing but many vegans become so deficient down the road that they can actually die from it. I would highly recommend taking B-12 and even zinc. Don't just take pills though, so true about the expensive pee. Take either sub lingual or liquid. That way you can be sure about absorption.

  • kellyannekellyanne Raw Newbie

    thank you superfood2!!!!

  • kellyannekellyanne Raw Newbie

    sv3- it really is surprising when you log it in huh! any oil is 100% fat so that will add a lot. after not using any salt or spices for a while you start to appreciate the taste of plain lettuce, especially when your body really wants it. when i first started the diet i would blend up blood oranges or tangerines and throw it over the salad. if you don't want anything sweet you can chop up a tomato with a little fresh cilantro. i don't have very many ideas, i'll try to come up with more :)

  • I agree with Superfood. I just read this entire post and def do not feel that Kelly in anyway has been pushy or anything but respectful as opposed to some other 8/1/1 posts i have encountered. Although I do not follow 8/1/1, I def. dont think i am educated enough on it to make a decision. Personally I love fruit. I tend to have a green juice in the am and then as much fruit as i want through out the day. Dinner I tend to have a salad, but only if i am not craving fruit anymore, since once i eat a salad its no more fruit for me! (which i have to admit was shocked about, because i used to eat fruit for dessert all the time- learn something new everyday!)

    Kelly- how does green lemonaide (romaine head, 5 sprigs of kale, green apple, whole lemon) affect you on the 8/1/1 diet?

  • superfood2superfood2 Raw Newbie

    I've never heard of "many vegans" becoming deficient in B12 and especially later dying. Most probably have better levels than omnivores, considering they are mindful to supplement, whereas some omnis haven't even heard of B12.

  • haha. very true. When i moved from NY to NC, i was majorly depressed and of course had a major eating issue. When i couldnt stand to look at myself anymore, (i was like 219) i went to a weight specialist, and got lots of exercise. This "weight" specialist put me on Phentermine, which i admit did work, (i have maintained my 160ish for two years) at this point in time, i dont even think i heard anything about Raw foods. They used to give me shots of B12 every week to give me an increase of energy to exercise... point of the story- people looked at me crazy wanting to know what a B12 shot was. Seriously? I may have been on a major SAD but i still knew about B12, and B6, etc. etc.

    I think it is going to be different for every person that embarqs on a raw lifestyle, based on what type of foods you eat. Some may need to supplement, some may not. Some may do it because they think they should or it makes them feel better.

  • kellyannekellyanne Raw Newbie

    lobo- thanks! sounds like you're really doing good! it's definitely smart to eat all the sweet fruit you want and then eat veggies later. putting fruits on top of veggies will cause the fruits to ferment. i don't drink or eat lemons anymore, haven't had any desire for them. the greens i've been craving lately are celery and lettuce. i sometimes eat them plain or wrap a banana with lettuce or i will blend up lettuce or celery with bananas. i've also been eating a lot of english cucumbers lately, plain or with bananas. that's usually how i get my greens.

  • sisterbeckysisterbecky Raw Newbie

    More links for anyone interested in Vitamin B-12. These are from "Vegan Outreach" and have sited sources (good to know where they are getting their info).




  • troublesjustabubbletroublesjustabubble Raw Newbie

    Superfood-It is possible to die from a deficiency in B-12. If you're deficient for a long period of time (probably over twenty years) the nerve and blood cell damage can lead to death. This isn't only a problem for vegans and vegetarians and unless you eat alot of beef and fish you can't get enough of it. I think it's really important to have an open mind about supplementing it because it's a very dangerous thing to be blind about it. I think you plan on being a vegan for your entire life because of your strong convictions and I think that's wonderful but in that time you can become deficient(I'm not just talking about the meat markets version of deficient but when your body actually can't function anymore) so please consider looking into it.

  • J AJ A

    Sounds like most of the earth's population should be deficient? "...unless you eat a lot of beef and fish" - doesn't apply for most of the earth's population.

    ...I think it's a good idea to look at real life examples, who's healthy and energetic, who isn't. Take Storm Talifero, been 100 % raw for 35+ years and he definitely doesn't look like the sick type to me. Then again, he does use bee products but definitely not "a lot of beef and fish". A bit of honey and bee pollen here and there.

  • superfood2superfood2 Raw Newbie

    Troubles, I think Kelly is one who doesn't want to supplement B12; I do, and have always on this site and others advocated that I think everyone, including omnivores, use a sublingual methylcobalamin. I don't know why you think I didn't know about B12? My statement was that I don't think deficiency is common in vegans, no. 1, and no 2, that it occurs in omnivores, especially elderly. Of course people can die from deficiency, but you said "many vegans" are deficient and die....that's my problem with your statement. It's entirely inaccurate.

  • troublesjustabubbletroublesjustabubble Raw Newbie

    superfood-haha okay, I must have totally misunderstood you. So sorry. I didn't mean to come off sounding judgmental. I realize that Kelly doesn't want to supplement and I totally understand that because for quite a while I didn't. But I just wanted to bring to light that issue. That's all.

    JA- Storm Talifero might be happy and healthy but probably is taking B-12.

  • J AJ A

    No, Storm is very specific about not taking any supplements. He says it here (http://chidiet.com/news/storm.htm), for example (the message itself has nothing with supplements to do but he mentions it). The entire family lives without any supplements.

    Personally I can't see we were created to need supplements. They came along a few decades ago, how come mankind survived a few millions of years without supplements ;) I also don't think we must have supplements regardless of the damage done to the soil by modern society etc. as long as we eat mainly organic and preferably some wild produce too.

  • superfood2superfood2 Raw Newbie

    Troubles, no problem! I would agree with you that maybe a few vegans (or people in general, even omnis) have died from a B12 deficiency, but not "many"!

  • J AJ A

    Jangreen: I could get real deep into archaeology and human history, it happens to be one of my absolute favorite subjects, but I guess this board is ill suited for that as it would involve too much non-vegan issues (I've been trashed on other vegan boards for bringing up the subject so I've become careful). Suffice to say whatever we've been eating for the past 20,000 years has with extremely high probability been there for way too short a time to affect our genes in any major way. To take an example, the skin color of homo sapiens changed lightning fast when we left Africa - in just around 1,000 generations, we went from all African black to something like modern peoples in Mid-East/North Africa. That's real blazing fast for evolution, rocket speed! This was because our ancestors were dying at a very young age of vitamin D deprivation, they didn't get old enough to have children - or if they did, only those children survived who, thanks to natural mutation, happened to have the lightest skin color.

    An adaptation to food items previously unknown to man would take a lot longer. We would more likely talk about hundreds of thousands of years rather than tens of thousands. All depends on selective (evolutionary) pressure - the higher it is (the less children surviving without genetic mutations), the faster the genetic change necessary to adapt to the new conditions will happen. There is no doubt that fruit & veggies are our oldest diet; I will not use this board to go in length into my personal opinions when it comes to the adaptation of homo sapiens to sea food, meat and cooked roots but I'll always be happy to discuss the subject by e-mail, PM or on a non-vegan forum. I'll just add that based on scientific evidence and real-life experience, I do think homo sapiens can thrive on a diet including other than strictly vegan foods. But like I said, that's best discussed somewhere else. For me, environmental reasons are enough to stay vegan.

  • kellyannekellyanne Raw Newbie

    i have to agree with JA on this one. not trying to convince anyone to quit their b12 supplement, but I think this is a great debate. why would we be created to have to rely on supplements? we were born with no tools for extracting vitamins and minerals. in the wild you wouldn't carry around a bottle of b12 supplement. we have the physiology of a frugivore. we do not have a physiology of a meat eater, so that means we were designed to eat fruit and greens. we would not be designed to eat fruit and greens and then not given the capabilities to meet all our vitamin and mineral needs. besides, meat eaters have the same problem, it is not a vegan or vegetarian issue. meat eaters have a harder time with absorption.

    we get everything we need from a natural diet of raw fruits and greens, the sun, and our bodies. if you eat 100% raw plant foods then your absorption will be far better than that of a SAD dieter. if you are not eating a healthy vegan diet of plant foods, then you should be supplementing, because your absorption will not be as good as a person that eats 100% raw plant foods.

    does anyone really know a specific person that really died from b12 deficiency, like they were tested and had no other health problems that contributed to their death besides that?

  • sisterbeckysisterbecky Raw Newbie

    Just to add some thoughts to the debate on B-12. Some possibilities on why "we" may need supplements, and our ancestors did not.

    Our ancestors very well may have needed supplements. They wouldn't have had blood tests to tell them. Though, even if you look back a few generations you will hear of people failing to thrive, dying from strange named wasting diseases, etc. Who is to say that those people may not have had B-12 issues (and they most likely where eating meat and dairy)

    Life spans were shorter long ago. Life was short and brutal. Food wasn't always abundant. Childbirth was much more dangerous, infant mortality high. If people had B12 problems, they probably had more immediate problems like "what am I going to eat today" to worry about. If there was fresh fruit and veggies, they ate them. If not, and they where hungery enough, maybe that's why people started eating meat? At least where I live (Ohio- cold winters), there is no way (that I can think of) that people actually followed "our" style of diet long ago. Where I live, the best indication of what people ate long ago would have been who we now call Native Americas. They ate deer and buffalo, and the local vegetables and fruits.

    They would have starved otherwise. I'm NOT advocating meat eating (I'm vegetarian, half ways vegan), just pointing out that I don't think there is a lot of evidence to say that all our ancestors ate raw vegan diets. Maybe in tropical areas (just like our closer vegetarian primate animals)?

    Long ago (even just go back several hundred years)- sanitation wasn't what it is today. People where more likely to get diseases from contaminated water. But, they may have also been getting their B-12 from the contaminated water (assuming contamination came from feces). I recall seeing an article (maybe someone else has) stating that there is a theory why people in the slums of India do not have B-12 issues (contaminated water).

    I personally feel following a high fruit, plenty of greens, and low fat high raw diet is working very well for me. I also believe that there are good arguments for being vegan- medical, ethical, and environmental.

    I just question whether there is a good evidence that long ago that's how everyone ate, and they where healthier and lived longer. I don't believe there is any evidence of cultures being completely raw vegan (or any kind of raw).

    I still believe it's good for me, and others. But, I don't know if we should look towards our ancestors or our physiology to justify our choice. No, we don't have claws and long teeth. But, we have tool (and weapon) making abilities. One on one, a human can't take down most prey. Guns, spears and such make it possible. For me, that kind of kills the physiology theory. I never use it when someone asks why I don't eat meat. (Plus, people who are concerned about not eating meat will point out our canine teeth.)

    Just some thoughts. Hopefully they came out sounding respecful and I don't mean to upset anyone. Just to add some different ideas.

  • pixxpixx Raw Master

    Here is some B12 info, as well as info on how to get a lab test through the mail.


  • kellyannekellyanne Raw Newbie

    hi sister becky, i don't think you would be upsetting anyone! as long as everyone is respectful (which you are), debating is great! you make good points, but anything from the the last 10,000 years should not be used as an example of anything related to health or natural even. during this time man ate a diet not ideal to their physiological design. man migrated and lived in climates that were harsh and that did not cater to their natural frugivorous diet. i think physiological design is really important for determining a natural diet for species. humans do not possess many things that true carnivores do, so it makes sense to use the physiological design of species for arguments.

    "Life spans were shorter long ago. Life was short and brutal. Food wasn't always abundant. Childbirth was much more dangerous, infant mortality high. If people had B12 problems, they probably had more immediate problems like "what am I going to eat today" to worry about. If there was fresh fruit and veggies, they ate them. If not, and they where hungery enough, maybe that's why people started eating meat? At least where I live (Ohio- cold winters), there is no way (that I can think of) that people actually followed "our" style of diet long ago. Where I live, the best indication of what people ate long ago would have been who we now call Native Americas. They ate deer and buffalo, and the local vegetables and fruits."

    you are right about all that. the only thing is that if you remove an animal from it's ideal habitat (ours being the tropics), you should expect that that animal will have hardships and will need to adapt to survive. when man migrated away from his natural habitat in the tropics he adapted to survive. man began to hunt for animals in areas barren of fruit, man began to wear animal skins as clothing in areas with colder climates, etc. we've proven to be a tough species that can survive doing many things that are not natural to us, but even though man survived, it doesn't seem that man lived happily and healthfully. this is definitely speculation on my part, but i would guess that the humans in the tropics lived much more comfortably and happily than their ancestors that migrated to the harsh, barren climates in other areas of the world. it seems that a lot of people today are drawn to and have a connection with the tropics. this makes sense to me, seeing as that is our natural habitat. we don't need animal skins, tools, or animal meat to survive in the tropics.

    "I just question whether there is a good evidence that long ago that's how everyone ate, and they where healthier and lived longer. I don't believe there is any evidence of cultures being completely raw vegan (or any kind of raw)."

    that's because culture is somewhat modern and it seems that everything modern has perverted our natural instincts (i'm looking back over hundreds of thousands of years). humans are the only species to have culture. culture is not natural. we are not born with it nor do we have instincts for it. it is something learned that has been passed down from generation to generation.

    our closest living relatives, the chimpanzees, eat a raw diet that consists mostly of fruit. we share 99% of our genetic makeup with them. yes, chimpanzees have been observed to eat some meat, but a very small percentage of their calories comes from meat. chimps also have the ability to crack open bones with their teeth, humans do not have that ability. they also eat it raw. i don't know of any humans that eat 100% raw meat unless is is processed in some way (with marinades, spices, etc). so it makes sense that chimps can eat some meat since they do not need tools for it like humans do or since raw meat is palatable to them.

    when we are in our natural habitat, it makes it very easy to eat our natural diet. now i'm rambling on and probably not making sense so i will leave it at that haha :)

  • Hi Kelly,

    This summer (August 20) will be my first complete year of being a Vegan. The initial transition was very easy for me, as I've only been eating meat since I was 7 (I'm 16). I only started eating meat because my doctor pressured my father into giving me appetite openers, which lead to massive cravings and weight gain. Last year I was about 240 pounds & wearing size 42 pants, now I'm around 145-150 (fluctuating) & wearing size 30 pants (barely). With this "massive" weight loss I have sort of flabby skin. It doesn't "sag" down but I can stretch it out, and I have a lot of stretch marks on my arms & stomach (probably some places that I'm not aware of). Do you think going Raw would be a good choice for me? I also suffering from acne since 8th grade, & still to this day I have problems with it. If I do go raw, I'm already aware of the fact that I will be mainly eating fruit. I've always had a natural affinity towards fruit, even as a child. I know your not an expert but you seem to be very knowledgeable on this subject.

    Also if it helps, today I ate (as a vegan I've learned to cut out Soy & Some Gluten):

    Rye Bread with "Raw" Nut Butter

    2 Bananas

    A Hand Full of Blueberries

    Grapes(Not sure about the amount, but it was fairly large)

    Non-Gluten Spaghetti w/ EVOO & Pasta Sauce (Spiced & Seasoned)

    - Thanks, Ashton .

  • superfood2superfood2 Raw Newbie

    I think eating more raw is good for everyone! Go for it. :)

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