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Let's Limit our Consumption of Bee Products



  • RawKidChefRawKidChef Raw Newbie

    Morning everyone,

    Glad to hear all these replies! It’s a good thing to know that lots of people agree on this bee issue. I never really saw it as a major issue till I started reading more stuff about the treatment of bees recently. It would rock if we could start some kind of bee preservation act. So we will all look for local beekeepers I suppose is my assumption? Either that or cut out bee products from the diet.

    In prehistoric times, I bet the tribes just went to the hive to grab some honey while the bees weren’t there. The bee industry has become absurdly manipulating from the bees’ point of view.

    About the dairy, I used to go to a local farm where fresh raw, grass-fed dairy was sold in different locations in my area. They sold cow and goat’s milk, fresh raw cream, butter, cottage cheese, everything you could wish for, and was promised to be 100% cruelty free and no manipulation. I stopped eating it though because it was screwing with my digestive system.

    I agree, 100%, we need to abolish large bee companies. This is going to become as important as global warming.

  • So you’ve seen a couple of dairy farmers and a couple of beekeepers, so you have made conclusions as to all farms and methods of confining nonhuman animals and obtaining different products? What exactly do you consider cruel, out of curiosity? Forcible impregnation? Forcible manual stim to ejaculation from a different species? Taking semen/sperm from another species for one’s own use? Confining someone or something in a building with no windows in his/her own feces and urine? Taking away one’s child? None of that is cruel to you?

    What do these dairy farmers you know do with the cows once they are done milking? How often are they impregnated? Where are they obtained from? How are they impregnated? What about their calves?

    Bees exist w/o human involvement. We are not needed for the bees, and you are making an assumption about “how much” honey a bee needs.

  • RawKidChefRawKidChef Raw Newbie

    I don’t think we need dairy in any way. Nor do we need cows :)

    No, I’m not saying I agree with any of that Superfood. I happen to find one farm that supposedly was trustworthy but I didn’t stay with it for more than a few weeks. I don’t eat dairy, and I haven’t eaten bee products in a few months. I don’t plan on going back any time soon. Hey, look I’m not an expert at anything related to the way cows are treated, I was just trying to explain that maybe (?) there are a few cruelty-free dairy farms. I am no expert and you know more than I do, I was just interested in the topic of dairy farms because someone else mentioned it.

  • Superfood….I have 3 words for you….

    I like you :o)

  • troublesjustabubbletroublesjustabubble Raw Newbie

    superfood-In the dairy farms that I used to visit when I was young there were probably only twenty or thirty cows. They weren’t artificially impregnated and they were grass fed and not kept in big windowless, crowded buildings. Their calves weren’t taken from them and nursed until they were ready to move to grass fed. So that’s why I had the general impression my whole life that there wasn’t cruelty in these places. Now I know about the mass supply and how awful it is. I’m just telling you that ignorance is bliss.

    I wish the world wasn’t how it is but there are something we can’t stop. People in general will always love milk and dairy products. I’d rather have them get that from local farms instead of corporations.

    In the wild the honey that the bees don’t eat just sinks to the bottom of the tree or hive or ground and remains unused.

  • jellibijellibi Raw Newbie

    Superfood, please check out RawkidChef’s profile so that you can see who you are speaking to in such an unkind way.

    Your point is valid, but you could try being a little more kind (to everybody, for that matter) (please?!)

  • jellibijellibi Raw Newbie

    RawKidChef, If that seemed condescending to you in any way I apologize. I’m the mom of a 12-year-old girl so I guess I’m being protective. I would never want anyone talking to my daughter that way.

    And especially because you brought up a very, very good thread and have some good, solid inquiries based on personal observation.

  • troublesjustabubbletroublesjustabubble Raw Newbie

    aww, jellibi- you’re so sweet all the time. I should take a lesson from you. Thanks for always being kind.

  • What a hot topic! Thanks, Vegan. :p :D

    I don’t think anything that might have happened “in the wild” applies to every case or domesticated or supposed “civilized” activity.

    Luckily, calves are the only species with a need for cow milk. I can choose what I purchase, as can you, which is beautiful. I cannot agree that animal slavery and abuse will not ever end…..

    The honey consumers would do best for themselves, avoid arguments, if they just admitted that they liked the taste/flavor and are acting with disregard for the bees and other animals.

  • I don’t think I spoke to anyone unkindly, and I didn’t address Rawkidchef, anyway.

  • troublesjustabubbletroublesjustabubble Raw Newbie

    yeah she was talking to me. hehe.

    Well maybe you’re right. I mean, of course I hope you’re right but I think it would take an economical state far worse than the one we’re in to kick the corporations out.

    I choose not to buy dairy products but I do get my honey from a couple local bee keepers. I don’t support the mass producers in any way there.

    I enjoy our conversations superfood. I always learn things from you.

  • jellibijellibi Raw Newbie

    I think it is more than just taste/flavor that keeps people using bee products. The honey is medicinal. It is good for you in a way that agave nectar (or any other sweetener that I know of) is not.

    And, I guess for me, the thing that keeps me away from being totally vegan is the choice between what’s natural vs. unnatural for my family. For example, I choose beeswax instead of paraffin candles. I choose wool instead of polyester. And my daughter goes to a Waldorf school, where plastics are totally avoided and all toys are made out of wood, wool, nut shells, and beeswax.

    It is a hard decision. And you’re right, Superfood. It means totally owning up to the fact that I’m acting with disregard to bees and other animals. And I have done that.

    It makes me sad, but to me it also seems like the best choice for myself and my daughter.

  • troublesjustabubbletroublesjustabubble Raw Newbie

    I think I agree with you jellibi. I drink hot water with lemon juice and honey because it’s soothing. Agave can’t sooth me.

    It is a choice and I’ve also made that choice. I’m not hurting animals by what I do. You may say I’m exploiting them but at least I do what it takes by buying locally from kind beekeepers and not corporations.

  • I enjoy them, too, Troubles!

    And just to add, when someone joins a message board and/or comes online, they agree to the terms and conditions. I haven’t broken any that I know of and my questions were not “unkind.” Rawkidchef chooses to come online and speak to us; I can’t control what he/she or anybody else deems appropriate. If Rawkidchef can’t handle it, he/she can just not come on the board.

  • angie207angie207 Raw Master

    FYI on honey & beekeeping – Most beekeepers (local or not) take all the honey they can get and often give their bees sugar water &/or corn syrup to eat for the winter instead of leaving the honey the bees have made for their own food. Bees keep collecting nectar & making honey out of it as long as the season lasts, and the honey they don’t eat ends up in the bottom of the hive with more and more fresh honey being made & stored on top. So it’s not too hard to see what is “excess” by seeing how much honey is left in the hive after the bees have eaten for the winter and before they’ve started collecting nectar again in the early spring.

  • Angie, do you find it considerate to take one’s honey and replace it with sugar water? Would you drink sugar water?

  • troublesjustabubbletroublesjustabubble Raw Newbie

    The two people I buy my honey from don’t feed their bees corn syrup. One of them is a teacher at a local community college and I have seen how he does it.

    However, in the wild they do make more honey than they eat. I don’t know if it’s because they are wanting to be prepared but it does actually happen.

    It is awful that they do that though. I wasn’t aware that that was happening. Now I feel like protesting

  • I think anytime we act on behalf of others, regardless of their species, is the best choice for all concerned. We can never go wrong when compassion is what motivates are decisions.

    jellibi, I implore you to look into the issue of wool. Australia produces 30 percent of all wool used worldwide. Holdings consist of thousands of sheep, making individual attention to their needs and even to medical emergencies impossible.

    In Australia, the most commonly raised sheep are Merinos, specifically bred to have wrinkly skin, which means more wool per animal. This unnatural overload of wool causes many sheep to collapse and even die of heat exhaustion during hot months, and the wrinkles collect urine and moisture. Attracted to the moisture, flies lay eggs in the folds of skin, and the hatched maggots can eat the sheep alive. To prevent this so-called “flystrike,” Australian ranchers perform a barbaric operation-called “mulesing”-where they force live sheep onto their backs, restrain their legs between metal bars, and, without any painkillers whatsoever, slice chunks of flesh from around their tail area. This is done to cause smooth, scarred skin that can’t harbor fly eggs. Ironically, the exposed, bloody wounds themselves often get flystrike before they heal.

    Within weeks of birth, lambs’ ears are hole-punched, their tails are chopped off, and the males are castrated without anesthetics. Male lambs are castrated when they are between 2 and 8 weeks old, either by making an incision and cutting their testicles out or with a rubber ring used to cut off blood supply-one of the most painful methods of castration possible. Every year, hundreds of lambs die before the age of 8 weeks from exposure or starvation, and mature sheep die every year from disease, lack of shelter, and neglect.

    Please learn more at www.savethesheep.com.

  • RawKidChefRawKidChef Raw Newbie

    jellibi, no, you weren’t being overprotective. That was very kind of you. And superfood, I didn’t take your post as harsh either :)

    I don’t think there is a problem with eating raw honey, provided it is purchased from kind beekeepers and not huge manufacturers. I love honey, and it is definitely the only sweetener that’s medicinal and tastes good. It’s been a while since I’ve really used any sweetener, really, except for the occasional small amount of maple syrup, which I know is not raw.

    Sorry if this is off topic, but, jellibi, did you say your daughter goes to the Waldorf School? The one in Baltimore, MD? Or the Montgomery County one? Wow! I went there in second grade, and from third grade till now I homeschool with Calvert School, now I’m in Seventh Grade.

    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh vegan that is horrible. I can’t believe it. That petrified me for a minute there. This is a very extreme example of how inhumane humans can be.

  • jellibijellibi Raw Newbie

    Thanks for the info on wool, vegan. I have already researched it. Your advice:

    think anytime we act on behalf of others, regardless of their species, is the best choice for all concerned. We can never go wrong when compassion is what motivates are decisions.

    is really good though and I will think about it a lot. The thing is, that I just truly believe that natural products are better than plastics. And I believe that the use/promotion of synthetics and plastics are doing more harm to our planet and animals then using beeswax and wool does.

  • jellibijellibi Raw Newbie

    RawKidChef: That’s great! We live in Oregon and she goes to the Portland Waldorf School, one of the few Waldorf schools that are nursery through High School. Is Calvert school a Waldorf homeschool program?

    Too bad you don’t live closer! My daughter would love to meet you, I’m sure. I think you have a lot in common :)

  • angie207angie207 Raw Master

    superfood – absolutely not! I was posting that in case people aren’t aware that this is how the bees are usually treated. That is what makes me picky about what honey I use, if any. The thing I posted about how much honey the bees produce was in response to someone saying that people are guessing about how much honey is excess, and it is part of what makes me want to keep bees – so I can use a little honey and make sure the bees are left with plenty of it for themselves. They make it for THEIR food, after all. If there is extra, I don’t mind using a little, and if there’s even more extra, I don’t mind giving it to others who can pay me for the time I take to extract & bottle it (not to mention the cost of buying a honey extractor). I would not be a beekeeper as a career, though, unless I had acres and acres of land for the bees to forage, and lots and lots of bee colonies, because I refuse to serve people’s appetites if it means compromising the bees. I want to be a farmer so I can feed the land, and if/when there is extra, I will eat &/or sell it (vegetables, fruit, honey, etc.). I don’t want to be a farmer just to get money – If I were to raise grain, for example, I would much rather raise wheat & sell it cheap or even give it away, rather than to accept money from the government to either leave my land unfarmed or to grow corn for fuel, while my neighbors can’t afford to buy food.

  • jellibijellibi Raw Newbie

    I’m trying to think of ways to use bee products and wool less. I use honey for sore throats, scrapes, and sometimes as a sweetener. I can use maple syrup or raw agave for a sweetener, that’s easy. But does anyone know of another all-natural remedy for sore throats and scrapes?

    Instead of beeswax candles there are soy candles. But soy crops are so genetically modified. Hmmm. I’ll have to think about that one. I don’t like using soy at all and I don’t want to support the growth of foreign soy crops.

    And then the big thing is wool. It gets cold and wet where I live. Besides polyester or other synthetics, does anyone have a good suggestion for all-natural warm clothing? (It has to be affordable)

    I would love any suggestions.

  • angie207angie207 Raw Master

    jellibi – I use lavender essential oil on scrapes & other skin problems.

  • RawKidChefRawKidChef Raw Newbie

    jellibi – I buy my clothes from Hanna Andersson, a Swedish children’s clothing company. Many of their items are made from organic cotton and even though they are expensive, they are VERY high quality and very comfortable. European clothing is much higher quality than American – and they have many clothes made with pure organic cotton. If you as me, you can buy less clothing that lasts longer from them, so, even though it’s a bit expensive, you can use the clothes for a long time. Take advantage they often have sales. Colorful, organic, tights, dresses, socks, sleepwear. I don’t know if the shoes are organic, but their shoes are still of high quality. You should check them out http://hannaandersson.com

    Candles, what’s wrong with beeswax? That seems to be a great alternative.

    I think you can buy lots of different raw skin soothing agents from http://www.oneluckyduck.com

    Cacao butter is the best for the skin I think, and so is coconut oil.

  • jellibijellibi Raw Newbie

    RawKidChef- I love Hanna Andersson too. You’re right, their clothing is great.

    About the beeswax, I think it is just as cruel to the bees to take their wax as it is to take their honey, unfortunately. I was wondering if there were any alternatives.

    Thanks for link to One Lucky Duck. That site looks amazing. I had never seen it before.

    Angie: Lavender essential oil! Good thinking :) I could rub that on with a little coconut oil, like RawKidChef suggested.

    Thanks for the ideas…

  • RawKidChefRawKidChef Raw Newbie

    I lost my train of thought there. Yes, beeswax is a bee product. Hmmmm…..

  • achin70achin70 Raw Newbie

    jellibi: Have you tried silk thermal underwear? Eddie Bauer used to sell it, and it’s supposed to wick moisture away from the skin more effectively than wool. I used to wear it, but I found that it felt cool against my skin. If anyone else has opinions about silk, I’ve love to hear from you.

    Here’s a link: http://www.wintersilks.com/longunderwear/defaul…~

    Here’s David Wolfe’s remedy for a sore throat: 1/2 lemon,1 T fresh ginger juice or ginger powder, 6 oz spring water warmed to 96 degrees. 1. Mix ginger into the water. 2. Squeeze lemon into the mix. Add 2-4 T of honey as an option. Do this 4-5 times per day.

    Or: 3 apples, 1 lemon, 1 slice of ginger root. 1. Peel the lemon, but keep the pith. 2. Juice everything, and warm up to 96 degrees if you like. This drink gets the bowels moving, which will drain the lymph system, and the lymphatic tissues will alleviate swelling throughout the body, including the throat. Do this 3-4 times per day.

  • I don’t eat honey or any other bee products because it is no different from cow milk, either way you are stealing from the animal that created it. Bee Keepers after gathering the honey, they replace the combs with a mixture of water and refined sugar—food for the bees, how horrible is that?

  • Inferior, non-raw, unnatural “food for the bees, how horrible is that?”


    You realize silk is just as bad as wool, everyone; right? Hopefully you don’t judge how you treat someone or any creature based on size. :( Or “intelligence,” as you perceive it. Then a bunch of handicapped and dwarfed people would be f*ed.

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