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Definitely Not a Palin fan

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  • RawKarateGirlRawKarateGirl Raw Newbie

    Yes, I think RawSarah is very right.

  • Meditating wrote: “Do you think if Russia thought the US was a real super power that they would have invaded Georgia?”

    Ummmmmmm, Russia didn’t invade Georgia.

    12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-ZTZpRMhbU

    Censored again on TV. The Truth about Georgia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bP_DiH6F6E

    BBC Video Proves Georgia to Blame for Hostilities: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U8cShdJuh4

    Mikhail Gorbachev on the Georgia/Russia conflict: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6TgEx8rnO8

    Don’t expect those videos to stay on Youtube for long. ;)

  • JoyceHJoyceH Raw Newbie

    Ok, One issue at a time (since there seems to be so many skeletons in the closet)

    Question One

    How do Palin supporters feel about this?

    “When Sarah Palin was mayor of Wasilla, the city billed sexual assault victims and their insurance companies for the cost of rape kits and forensic examinations.

    Palin had been in office for four years when the practice of charging rape victims got the attention of state lawmakers in 2000, who passed a bill to stop the practice.”

    Personally I’m outraged….

    Obama may not be perfect but he does seem to care about women. Here’s email email from a friend that I’m copying and pasting:

    1. Obama created a task force on cervical cancer, providing greater access to breast and cervical cancer screenings, and helping improve prenatal and premature birth services.

    2. Obama has a 100% rating for protecting women’s choice.

    3. Obama’s legislation helps protect women from sexual assault.

    4. Obama passed the Equal Pay Act In Illinois to give 330,000 more women protection from pay discrimination.

    5. Obama passed a law to create the Victims’ Economic Security And Safety Act (VESSA), which would help victims of abuse seek treatment without losing their job.

    6. Obama passed into law a requirement that women and minority scientists &/or engineers be represented and consulted on specific technology and science efforts.

    7. Obama passed into law an amendment creating a mentoring program for women and underrepresented groups at DOE.

    8. Obama created a working, affordable health care plan in Illinois, that covers 70,000 kids and 84,000 adults, where all kids qualify for $40 per child. Obama sponsored and passed this legislation, working with Rod R. Blagojevich (IL Gov.) It is a model for a workable, affordable national health care program.

    9. Obama supports early childhood education.

    10. Obama co-sponsored the Healthy Kids Act of 2007 and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) Reauthorization Act of 2007 to ensure that more American children have affordable health care coverage.

    Here is an incomplete list of McCain’s efforts:

    McCain voted AGAINST Equal Pay for Women. McCain voted AGAINST (Biden’s) Violence Against Women. McCain voted AGAINST Title X Health Care Services for Women. McCain voted AGAINST Children’s Health Insurance Program (SCHIP). McCain voted AGAINST aid to Children of Domestic Violence. McCain voted AGAINST Emergency Funding for Victims of Hurricane Katrina. McCain wants to bring back the DRAFT. McCain voted WITH Bush/Cheney 90% of the time. —

    “Hope” is the thing with feathers— That perches in the soul— And sings the tune without the words— And never stops—at all—

    - Emily Dickinson

  • omshantiomshanti Raw Newbie

    wow so much to comment on but no time!!! and im sure there will be more posts before i get back to it….I agree with meditating about the media being a huge problem….but how do we affect change in the press? I dont watch tv or buy news papers. When im completely outraged about misinformation or rediculous representation of a subject near and dear to me(fetched of the computer) i email news agencys and the reporter who in my opinion erred…outside of this i cant think of another thing i can personally do to express my disatisfaction with their shoddy reporting…ideas? Seemingly americans have lost control of our country, what it once stood for and our political system….

    cpagosa and aspire, im with the two of you on riding horses everywhere! i wish! my husband and i have hearty debates about this all the time…im not for knocking us back into the stone age, by reverting to horse and buggy mode as the sole means of transportation BUT if more initiatives where taken on a local level why couldnt those of us with horses ride to work? people bycicle to work, scooter to work, take public transporttion to work. so in a town that is ameanable why not ride horses? is it really any more impractical than a bike? my husband makes a good point though: where the issues would start are the demands of said riders wanting amenities provided to them by the town, water and hay available, designated paths, so much corral space dedicated, not to mention animal rights people who have been on the amish case for decades ect ect….Im an optimist in some ways though and think it worked at one point in our history and it could again! I for one would love to be the one owning the horsey daycare…providing that, “parking space” hay and water and rub down for those who rode in for the day!!!!;0)

  • greenghostgreenghost Raw Newbie

    Thank you again JoyceH, Meditating, simplyraw, aspire, and others.

    If all anyone can think of in defense of George Bush is that he supposedly ‘kept terrorists out of the country for several years’ – well that is not any more than any other president did.*
    Only the other presidents didn’t bankrupt the country in the process (We were in SURPLUS before GB came along – it’s so convenient how many Mc/P supporters forget that!)
    Or strip citizens of their civil rights.
    Or resort to torture – anybody for Waterboarding?
    Or spying on US citizens…
    Or start a War based on lies (WMD? ...um, where?)
    Furthermore – GB & Cheney and their Corporate cronies are making HUGE profits on the war in Iraq while our troops die or get maimed.

    Also – for those republicans who claim to be for less governmental control etc…that’s a laugh!..
    What about the Patriot Act? That created more bureaucracy while stripping away our civil rights—
    Remember habeas corpus anyone?

    It’s all been smoke and mirrors – distract citizens with toys like the latest iPhone, barrage people with images of terror, and numb them out with idiotic means of entertainment while slowly & consistently eating away the Constitution.

    We are in the Matrix. We are in a fascist state now. Continuing Under this kind of Administration will shatter what remains.

    George Carlin was right when he said “It’s over man.”

    So my question of what GB has done to help us, to help the average American, is still unanswered.

    *Addendum… actually GB didn’t do such a hot job of keeping terrorists out… since they did strike on US ground UNDER GB’s watch.

  • You all have such good points! Meditating, Joyce, Simply, Aspire, and Greenghost.

    GG, I can’t believe you brought up the Matrix! I woke up this morning thinking that exact thought… I was thinking, “We’re in the Matrix here, in more ways than we can imagine.”

  • RawKidChefRawKidChef Raw Newbie

    LOL!!!!!!! YES! I am definitely not a Palin fan. I wanted Hillary to win before. Palin is just ridiculous, she doesn’t know any thing in my opinion and isn’t qualified to be president of McCain dies. I could be too Democratic but Palin seems ridiculous.

  • So More a Matrix…

    then most of us could even fathom!!!

  • Hang on, if we are to believe the press, then GB didn’t manage to keep the terrorists out! If it wasn’t a conspiracy of the Government, then that’s why the twin towers are no more!!

  • Oh sorry greenghost, you already put that….

  • Palin has repeatedly demonstrated her poor understanding of science and what can only be described as an immunity to established scientific facts.

    When asked about creation vs evolution, Palin responded ‘Teach both. You know, don’t be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important, and it’s so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both.’

    The debate over talking snakes and sky fairies as opposed to scientific evolution is not a healthy one. To reject evolution, not only do you have to reject most of modern biology, but physics, chemistry, and geology as well. Teaching controversial theories is fine, as long as the controversy exists in the scientific community (this particular one does not) rather than among lay persons with poor backgrounds in science. So let’s teach alchemy in chemistry, and astrology in astronomy. I’m sorry, there is fact and there is fantasy. It should be left up to scientists to determine the appropriate content for a science class, not politicians that think they know better than paleontologists and geneticists. Why give equal time to a “theory” that over 99% of scientists say is bunk? Contrast this with McCain’s statement.

    “Darwin helped explain nature’s laws. He did not speculate, in his published theories at least, on the origin of life.” “He did not exclude God, for Whom the immensity of time is but a moment, from our presence. The only undeniable challenge the theory of evolution poses to Christian beliefs is its obvious contradiction of the idea that God created the world as it is in less than a week. But our faith is certainly not so weak that it can be shaken to learn that a biblical metaphor is not literal history. Nature doesn’t threaten our faith. On the contrary, when we contemplate its beauty and mysteries we cannot quiet in our heart an insistent impulse of belief that for all its variations and inevitable change, before its creation, in a time before time, God let it be so, and, thus, its many splendors and purposes abide in His purpose.”

    Of course there is no empirical evidence for a creator and you have to take that on faith, an arbitrary faith bestowed on you by the environment in which you grew up, and his awe of nature doesn’t explain why he believes in Jesus rather than Athena, but that isn’t the point. His opinion is an example of something I can RESPECTFULLY disagree with, and shows that he is not impervious to facts. Sarah Palin, on the other hand, learned something else first, and consequently everything learned after that must be wrong. The holy book of childhood cannot, and must not, be wrong.

    Palin believes that parents should have the ultimate control over their children’s education, and should be able to opt their children out of instruction that offends their delicate sensibilities. This ensures that the next generation will be just as dumb as the previous. In addition, during city council meetings, she brought up the possibility of banning books on multiple occassions. In her defense, she did not try to fire the librarian, nor did she bring up specific book titles. Could it have been because of violence or sexual content? I imagine that one of the most explicitly violent and sexual books ever written, the holy bible, maintains a position on her shelf. Yet few find it unfit to read.

    She supports abstinence only sex education, despite its miserable failure. (As an aside, the press coverage of her pregnant teenage daughter is not appropriate, but highlights the issue of teen pregnancy.) She believes abortion is not ok even in cases of rape or incest. She is against embryonic stem cell research when we can do it on “wisdom teeth,” which shows her basic misunderstanding of the differences between embryonic and adult stem cells. Thankfully, McCain understands the difference. He also supports exceptions for rape and incest, unlike Palin, although he wants to overturn Roe vs Wade.

    People are dying because, thanks to people like Palin, an embryonic blob is given far more rights than a living chimpanzee that can think, feel, and use sign language.

    On ANWR:

    ”...at that point it’s about 2,000 acres that is being asked to be looked at and to be explored and to be produced. Two-thousand acres out of 20-million acres. Well, that footprint, it’s about the size of LAX or one of the larger airports across the nation.” Thankfully McCain, who opposes the drilling, comes through for us again as the voice of semi-reason.

    First of all, the oil is not all in one 2,000 acre plot. It is spread throughout a region larger than Delaware. So, it is not one connected 2,000 acre area that would be developed. Individual sites have to be connected with roads and pipelines. For a comparison, another project in the region involved development over 12,000 acres, but actually spread over an area of 640,000. So, it is not realistic to say that only 2,000 acres will be affected. The region that will be developed, while portrayed by her as a barren wasteland, is actually the calving ground for a threatened species of caribou. The fish and wildlife service issued a statement that the region has “a greater degree of ecological diversity than any other similarly sized area in Alaska’s north slope.”

    Sarah Palin believes that global warming is not caused by human activity. In this respect she is in polar (no pun intended) opposition to the scientific consensus.

    Sarah supported a predator control program that led to the execution style shooting of wolves and bears. As a result, state biologists had to enter the dens of abandoned mothers to shoot 14 wolf pups in the head. Quite an expensive program to increase the population of nonthreatened prey animals, 73% of which become trophies. Palin also opposed a bill to protect salmon from the harmful effects of mining. Thankfully, she was defeated.

    So there we have it. Sarah Palin….ecologist, conservation biologist, geneticist, and paleontologist!

  • Wow, honeywater. Thank you for that extremely illuminating post. I respect that you use facts and rational argument while refusing to repeat things which – though they bolster your point – are possibly not true (firing librarian, exact titles). I have never understood the position of many fundamentalist christians. to me, they seem to display the least “christian” behavior possible – judging other people, backing policies which objectively hurt a great number of people, refusing to engage in fair debate, narcissistically holding out that the faith they were born into is the only true faith in the world and that every other person is grossly misinformed and doomed to hell, etc. besides, according to the bible, as a jew i’m a member of the chosen people, so everyone else needs to bow down, damn it.

  • to me, they seem to display the least “christian” behavior possible

    as a believer myself, I totally agree with you Dagny.

    as a jew i’m a member of the chosen people, so everyone else needs to bow down, damn it.

    You are hysterical. (seriously, the chosen part is true)

  • TomsMomTomsMom Raw Newbie

    This administration practices an utter distain for citizens. “Bread and circuses”. They know it works.

  • MeditatingMeditating Raw Newbie

    This is a good thead.

    Unless you are a religious zealot, I just can’t imagine that anyone would find Palin a viable candidate. Look at her mantra for “change” and “reform,” which she claims includes ethical conduct. First, she promisis to cooperate with the ethics investigation into her conduct because she has nothing to hide. Now, she declines to do so and directs others to ignore subpoenas. She is thumbing her nose at the investigatory process and instructing others to ignore/break the law. Is this not just like Bush/Cheney openly defying our laws? It is a textbook example of unethical behavior and devious intent.

  • greenghostgreenghost Raw Newbie

    Exactly Meditating
    and I know I already wrote this several pages back, but…
    what is scary is that “Palin already has a record of power abuse and now people want her to sit one seat away from the most powerful post in the US.”
    this quote is from Danny Thornton @ 23 from C&L John Stewart link

    The deviousness and lack of ethics reminds me of the “do as I say, not as I do” mentality. B&C and now Palin are, in their own minds and actions, above the law.

  • omshantiomshanti Raw Newbie

    Ok guys this may be a bit unorthodox however its my fault as i copied HONEYWATERS post to everyone who has been “tormenting” me with politics lately(mom and dad vs hubby vs hippy friends vs military ones) i say this lovingly as they are all trying to get me to vote their way and i admire them for their strong beliefs, that said what follows is my HUBBYS responce to HONEYWATERS posting…. this is a disclaimer: his thoughts do not mirror mine, nor do they totally depart from mine..our house is always full of “lively” discussion…..;0)

    Just So We All Know.

    Nearly 80% of Americans believe in god, and yet the possibility of creation should not be taught in schools? Fine, then don’t teach evolution either. Why is it acceptable to belittle a persons belief in god, but do not dare to question science? In taking this position haven’t you made science your god, and your belief structure? Why are you unable to say I respectfully disagree and leave it at that? Why must it be followed with sarcasm, and attacks? This diminishes the importance of the argument. I do not pretend to have all the answers but I know enough to be sure that you don’t either. Scientist will tell you that there is much we don’t understand in the universe. True science is not only built on, but requires an open mind. I believe elementary schools should teach reading, writing, arithmetic and music (the latter only because it has been shown to improve learning in other areas). I believe the sciences should be saved for middle and high school students who hopefully have the maturity level to deal with the importance of these topics. The topic of evolution vs creation should be part of a class that teaches both sides and reinforces the understanding of each. The final decision is a personal choice. This is the area where I disagree with you most of all. Your position does not allow for personal choice. It proclaims science above all else and any alternative should not be tolerated. Maybe I’m just one of those small town people clinging to my guns and religion. As for your strong beliefs on Sarah Palin, I can respectfully disagree with you on several of your points, but of ultimate importance is the right you have to make them. This is about freedom; freedom of religion, of speech and of thought. When I read your comments I don’t just get the impression that you disagree with Sarah Palin, but that you actually hate her. Perhaps I’m wrong (and I hope I am), because I think this does diminishes the discussion. I have not had time to check on all your facts yet, but a couple of them I already know to be false. First and foremost is the book banning fable, this was debunked a long time ago and yet it lives on in the heart of bloggers across the Internet who have surrendered the idea of “We the People” for a political party affiliation. No matter who our next President may be, “We the People” do not benefit unless their platform is built on truth. Secondly, as for scientific consensus on global warming. Your position requires that global warming in itself is a fact, which is also not true. Please read the February 2007, IPCC summary of the Fourth Assesment Report. You may disagree with the findings but the idea that global warming is a fact has not determined. Please keep in mind while reading this that I found your post both articulate and thought provoking, and I am glad there are people out there willing to raise their voices against what they perceive to be bad for this country. We are blessed to have this type of freedom and by not using we diminish ourselves as citizens. I hope to read many more of your post in the future.

  • greenghostgreenghost Raw Newbie

    well.. It’s not a question of ‘belittling’. It’s related to the First Amendment and the Separation of Church and State.
    “This separation protects us from undue religious influence in government and undue government intervention in religion and private decision-making.”
    http://www.firstfreedomfirst.org/about

    Even among those who ‘believe in God’ not everyone shares the same religion or religious tenets.
    Why is it that (some) Christians think their religion is more important?
    Religion dichotomizes people in this way.
    Freedom of Religion means all Religions – including No Religion.

  • Secondly, as for scientific consensus on global warming. Your position requires that global warming in itself is a fact, which is also not true. Please read the February 2007, IPCC summary of the Fourth Assesment Report. You may disagree with the findings but the idea that global warming is a fact has not determined.

    It’s true. Man-made global warming is a lie (as far as I’ve been able to determine).

    Google: “global warming mars”

    Google: “global carbon tax”

    Youtube: “the great global warming swindle”

    I’m not saying humans aren’t messing up the planet, but this global warming hysteria is distracting us from real environmental problems (like genetic engineering, deforestation, overfishing, etc).

  • JoyceHJoyceH Raw Newbie

    Just thought this was interesting. I’m copying and pasting from and email I received from a friend today:

    “The National Organization for Women has decided the McCain/Palin is such a threat to the rights of American women, they have formally endorsed the Obama-Biden ticket DESPITE the fact there is a woman on the opposing ticket. NOW has previously endorsed at the presidential level only FOUR TIMES—and each time there was a woman on the ticket: Shirley Chisolm in the 1972 Democratic primary; Democrats Walter Mondale and Geraldine Ferraro for the 1984 general election; Carol Mosely Braun in the 2003 Democratic primary; and Hillary Rodham Clinton in the 2008 Democratic primary.”

    http://www.now.org/press/09-08/09-16.html

  • Planned Parenthood Donation in Honor of Sarah Palin (Anti-Women’s rights/choice)

    Like others have said, I am not for abortions, at All, but I am pro-chioce!!

    Instead of sending emails ‘voicing our concerns’ about Gov. Sarah Palin, let’s all make a $10 donation to Planned Parenthood, in Sarah Palin’s name.

    And here’s the good part: when you make a donation to PP in her name, they’ll send her a card telling her that the donation has been made in her honor.

    Here’s the link to the Planned Parenthood website:

    https://secure.ga0.org/02/08_donate_inhonorof

    You’ll need to fill in the address to let PP know where to send the ‘in Sarah Palin’s honor’ card. I suggest you use the address for the McCain campaign headquarters, which is:

    McCain for President 1235 S. Clark Street 1st Floor Arlington , VA 22202

    P.S. make sure you use that link above or choose the pulldown of Donate—Honorary or Memorial Donations, not the regular ‘Donate Online’

  • By Eve Ensler

    I am having Sarah Palin nightmares. I dreamt last night that she was a member of a club where they rode snowmobiles and wore the claws of drowned and starved polar bears around their necks. I have a particular thing for Polar Bears. Maybe it’s their snowy whiteness or their bigness or the fact that they live in the arctic or that I have never seen one in person or touched one. Maybe it is the fact that they live so comfortably on ice. Whatever it is, I need the polar bears. I don’t like raging at women. I am a Feminist and have spent my life trying to build community, help empower women and stop violence against them. It is hard to write about Sarah Palin. This is why the Sarah Palin choice was all the more insidious and cynical. The people who made this choice count on the goodness and solidarity of Feminists. But everything Sarah Palin believes in and practices is antithetical to Feminism which for me is part of one story—connected to saving the earth, ending racism, empowering women, giving young girls options, opening our minds, deepening tolerance, and ending violence and war. I believe that the McCain/Palin ticket is one of the most dangerous choices of my lifetime, and should this country chose those candidates the fall-out may be so great, the destruction so vast in so many areas that America may never recover. But what is equally disturbing is the impact that duo would have on the rest of the world. Unfortunately, this is not a joke. In my lifetime I have seen the clownish, the inept, the bizarre be elected to the presidency with regularity. Sarah Palin does not believe in evolution. I take this as a metaphor. In her world nothing changes or gets better or evolves. She does not believe in global warming. The melting of the arctic, the storms that are destroying our cities, the pollution and rise of cancers, are all part of God’s plan. She is fighting to take the polar bears off the endangered species list. The earth, in Palin’s view, is here to be taken and plundered. The wolves and the bears are here to be shot and plundered. The oil is here to be taken and plundered. Iraq is here to be taken and plundered. As she said herself of the Iraqi war, “It was a task from God.” Sarah Palin does not believe in abortion. She does not believe women who are raped and incested and ripped open against their will should have a right to determine whether they have their rapist’s baby or not. She obviously does not believe in sex education or birth control. I imagine her daughter was practicing abstinence and we know how many babies that makes. Sarah Palin does not much believe in thinking. From what I gather she has tried to ban books from the library, has a tendency to dispense with people who think independently. She cannot tolerate an environment of ambiguity and difference. This is a woman who could and might very well be the next president of the United States. She would govern one of the most diverse populations on the earth. Sarah believes in guns. She has her own custom Austrian hunting rifle. She has been known to kill 40 caribou at a clip. She has shot hundreds of wolves from the air. Sarah believes in God. That is of course her right, her private right. But when God and Guns come together in the public sector, when war is declared in God’s name, when the rights of women are denied in his name, that is the end of separation of church and state and the undoing of everything America has ever tried to be. I write to my sisters. I write because I believe we hold this election in our hands. This vote is a vote that will determine the future not just of the U.S., but of the planet. It will determine whether we create policies to save the earth or make it forever uninhabitable for humans. It will determine whether we move towards dialogue and diplomacy in the world or whether we escalate violence through invasion, undermining and attack. It will determine whether we go for oil, strip mining, & coal burning or invest our money in alternatives that will free us from dependency and destruction. It will determine if money gets spent on education and healthcare or whether we build more and more methods of killing. It will determine whether America is a free open tolerant society or a closed place of fear, fundamentalism and aggression. If the Polar Bears don’t move you to go and do everything in your power to get Obama elected then consider the chant that filled the hall after Palin spoke at the RNC, “Drill, Drill, Drill.” I think of teeth when I think of drills. I think of rape. I think of destruction. I think of domination. I think of military exercises that force mindless repetition, emptying the brain of analysis, doubt, ambiguity or dissent. I think of pain. Do we want a future of drilling? More holes in the ozone, in the floor of the sea, more holes in our thinking, in the trust between nations and peoples, more holes in the fabric of this precious thing we call life?

  • As many of you know, I dont trust either candidate. I found a website that shows Obama’s stances earlier in his political run for presidency vs now. This is showing his stances on technology and science. It really doesnt start to get scary until you compare Barak Obama’s Plan vs Obama’s and Biden’s Plan…

    http://versionista.com/diff/JAS9LMr5qU7q8BSroV8…

  • Flinzz78… Abusing a charity like that seems really petty. Why don’t you just donate under your own name. :)

  • JoyceHJoyceH Raw Newbie

    Flinzz78 – thanks for posting the PP Donation link!! I don’t feel there’s any abuse with this. PP will be benefiting from all extra monetary contributions I’m sure, so I don’t see why PP would have any objections to extra cash flow. Plus it’s free publicity for PP as well. And giving a donation in the name of someone else is completely legitimate. I think it’s rather clever and sends a message to the McCain/Palin campaign.

    I donate to the local Humane Societies and animal shelters in the name of family and friends every year for xmas (these donations are done in lieu of wasteful material store bought gifts and everyone is always touched and thilled to have donations made in their name to help homeless animals). Of course I also donate to these local shelters in my own name as well as the National & International Humane Societies in my own name

    www.hsus.org.

    Anyhoo, thank you flinzz78 for you posts :-)

  • RawKRawK Raw Newbie

    how does giving money to a charity in anyway constitute abuse?? abuse is forcing a woman to bear the product of a rape!! or forcing her to pay for the testing!! im exasperated!

  • RawK, I am with you. I want to just scream. I don’t like McCain, but I understand why some people do and why they support him. But there is no reason to support Palin beyond ‘She’s real Christian and so am I. And she seems more Christian than that other fellow with the Muslim name.” No one has even tried to claim that they supported Palin – or knew of her or her so called “record” – before McCain picked her. But now everyone is scrambling to prove why she is qualified. She’s not freaking qualified. She’s just a politican pawn to deliver the ultra-religious fanatics who don’t trust McCain. Welcome to the United States of Jesus. No religious choice allowed.

  • JoyceHJoyceH Raw Newbie

    DagnyTaggart – you rock! Couldn’t have said it any better :-)

    I keep hearing about so many women being offended by McCain’s transparent choice as a running mate. Supporters of Hillary are not going to flock to Palin just because she is female…Those two women have absolutely nothing in common….

    btw – I am a Hillary Clinton fan :-)

  • greenghostgreenghost Raw Newbie

    yep… you’re right RawK. It is exasperating…. and sickening…. and barbaric…. and loathesome…..and CREEPY!!!!

    Ditto to what JoyceH just said…. and you do rock dagney!

  • Meditating wrote: “One aspect of the abortion issue that I didn’t see mentioned yet is that freedom of religion ceases to exist when legislation is passed based on a specific religious belief.”

    It’s not a religious belief on my part. I’m an atheist, I just know that I was once a fetus, and if you had grabbed my mother during her first trimester, strapped her into a chair, stuck a metal suction tube into her uterus, tore me into little pieces, and sucked me out of there, I’d be dead right now.

    Nobody has the freedom to commit murder. I could walk up to a child and shoot them in the head, and claim that they didn’t have life because they weren’t 18 yet, but that wouldn’t fly in our society. Murder is never a “choice.”

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